Michigan Short Track Racing Club: INFO on Street Stock chassis Tech ,,,OLD POST WITH TECH INFO - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

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INFO on Street Stock chassis Tech ,,,OLD POST WITH TECH INFO Toledo FS going to FR SS rules, here is your chassis info

#1 User is offline   tricknology Icon

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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:43 PM

topic.....

Unified set of Street Stock rules for the state of michigan

Question....

In your Opinion.....For 2005 what should be the standard set of rules for all tracks for the Street stock division???
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:47 PM

For the 2004 season,
the Street Stocks at many tracks in Michigan,

ARP or 5 Star fabricated template STEEL bodies, such as the 2004 Monte carlo,2004 Taurus, 2004 Intrepid are legal.

go to..

http://www.arpbodies...og/2002mcs.html

or

http://www.arpbodies...og/2002fts.html

or

http://www.arpbodies...og/gpsteel.html

or

http://www.arpbodies...og/2002dis.html

http://www.arpbodies...log/camaro.html
or

www.fivestarbodies.com


Fabricated Steel interiors are also Ok in 2004.

This means the only stock thing is the chassis/frame, who's wheel base now can be shortened to match the ARP and 5 Star 2004 body.

For example, a 1965 to 1970 Impala frame (which comes from the factory with a 3 link/panhard bar rear suspension ) can be shortened to 105"" wheelbase, install a Fabricated steel interior, and install a Steel 2004 Five Star Monte carlo body. This combination would be legal.

Or a 1970's Impala station wagon frame with leaf springs, could be shortened to 105 "" wheel base, install a fabricated steel interior and 2004 5 Star Monte Carlo steel body, and this combination would be legal also.

Seeing now that the body and frame and interior no longer match,.....

why should we not allow the option to use either the Ford frame or the GM factory frame to be used?

Why must the frame mfg. match the body and engine mfg? ford frame = Ford engine, Gm frame = GM engine.

GM has not built a full framed car for 10 or more years, yet Ford still builds full framed cars, the Ford Crown Vic.

Several years ago, ARCA changed the Street Stock rules to allow the GM racers to use the Ford frame, the Body and engine mfg. must match, but not the frame, this also allows the Dodge boys to build a car using a GM or Ford frame, with Dodge engine and a 5 Star Dodge template body.

IMHO, In 2005, all tracks should allow Street Stocks option to use either a Ford or GM frame, the frame mfg does not have to match Engine/body mfg...but the Body and Engine must match...GM body style must run GM engine, Ford body style must run ford engine and Dodge body style must run Dodge engine, but frame mfg. does not have to match engine/body mfg.

Please post Your thoughts
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:52 PM

When we look at ALL the Stock frames and supensions from an engineering and Economic stand point...
which frame had the best stuff to make a SS....

That criteria was...

#1 It had to be cheap.

#2 it had to produced in large numbers.

#3 It had to have a wide tread width.

#5 It had to have a Heavy duty rear axel STD.

#6 It had to have heavy duty hubs and spindels.

#7 It had to have come with factory 4 wheel disc brakes.

#8 It had to have a stiff stong frame.

#9 It had to come from the factory with a 3 link/panhard bar rear suspension.

Can you guess which frames met most of these criteria?????

I will give you hint...It was NOT the GM MId sized car frames.
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:53 PM

From an Engineering and Economic standpoint...

The Midsized GM Frames are NOT the optimum candidate to build a Street Stock chassis.

Why?..

they require a lot of Work, time, and money when compared to Other Stock Frames/chassis.

The Midsized GM frames ...

Have a comparativly narrow treadwidth.

Were last produced in large numbers about 20 years ago, and Rust free cars are hard to find and are expensive.

They came with a weak rear axle, many racers spend close to $1,000 to install a Ford rear axle.

They have Weak spindles and hubs, and wheel studs.

No Factory 4 wheel disc brakes.

A weak frame the bends easy and rusts out easy.

No factory 3link/panhard bar supension.( although I know a LOOP HOLE, the Last year of the Buick GNX came with a torque arm and a Panhard bar! VERY rare.).

The Rear Frame kickup over the axle is too low, racers notch the kickup to clear the rear axel, which weakens the frame even more.

The frame is not Boxed, it is of weak C-channel construction.
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:55 PM

Now lets examine some of the other candidates than meet most of the criteria...

The 1965 to 1970 Chevy Impala Frame meets many of the criteria of a good candidate...

It has...

a wide tread width,

a strong frame,

3 link/panhard bar rear suspension.

12 bolt heavy duty rear axle.

Strong hubs and spindles.

But is now RARE, and is out of the competition because its too hard to find.

Next (IMHO THE BEST Candidate) is the 1965 to 1978 full sized Ford Galaxy,LTD,Mercury Marquise. The 1976 to 1978 frames are a little lighter because they went from .110 thick steel to .090 steel.

they have a Very Wide track width, about 4 inches wider than a GM chassis.

they come with a Heavy duty Ford 9 inch rear axel.

The Lincoln Town Car disc Brake Rear axel Bolts right in, No mods needed.

They come with a 3link/panhard bar rear suspension.

they have Heavy duty, spindles, hubs, Wheel bearings, Tie rods, Ball joints, and wheel studs. the spindels are Forged Steel NOT Cast iron, so tabs can be welded on to adapt the GM Calipers if you want to.

The frame is VEry strong, and is Boxed from the factory. It is very EASY to shorten the wheel base to 105"" because the frame rails are rectangular tubing.

But now these frames are getting a little harder to find.

I built many Street Stocks using the 1976 to 1978 Full sized Ford LTD frame, and at Flat rock they still run strong, against cars that use the Full HOWE racing suspensions.

In 1979 Ford completly changed their frames and copied the GM frame, the 1979 to 1997 ford Crown vic frames are simular to the GM frames but are MUCH stronger, but because they came with GM type 4 link rear supension...They do not make a good candidate.

In 1998, Ford Updated the Crown Vic chassis, This would make a good candidate..Because..

It has a wide tread width..

It has a strong frame, the main frame rails are of 2X4 rectangular tubing. shortening the wheell base from 114.6"" to 105"" is EASY.

It has high rear frame kickups that will clear the rear axle when the car is lowered.

It has heavy duty, Spindles, hubs, brakes, Ball joints, tie rods, and wheel studs.

It has a Strong rear axle, with available rear discs. Many cars came with a 3.55 ratio rear axle. Using a Powerglide Trans will give you 6.25 final ratio.

for 1998, the Rear supension was completly changed to copy a Dirt Late modle, It has a watts linkage in combination with parallel 4 links, This is cool rear suspension.

And because this 1998 & up Crown vic, Mercury Marquise, Linclon Town car, frame was made in LARGE numbers they are locally Available and CHEAP!

A 1998 to 2001 frame will not need to be sand blasted, it will be rust free.

Most of these cars were owned by Old folks and are Low milage. a chassis with about 50,000 miles can be had for a few hundred dollars, You will not have to rebuild any thing... You will use the original Ball joints, tie rods, wheel bearings,rotors, clalipers, control arms, and rear axel.

Soo lets look at the costs, work and time to build a Street Stock using the 1998 & newer Ford chassis.

shop around get a low milage 1998 & up chassis that has the disc brake 3.55 ratio rear axel.

YOU are saved the time,money and work of rebuilding the suspension and sand blasting the frame. You do not have to change the rear axle ratio, it is already OK.

shorten the Main 2X4 frame rails to get 105"" wheelbase.

Install your roll cage. ( as far to the rear as possible).

Install the Fabricated steel interior.

Install your Chevy V8 with the powerglide trans.

Install your Steel template body.

Install your racing springs and shocks.

Go racing with a killer car that is LOW cost, easy to build, easy to repair, that handles great as it came from the factory.
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:56 PM

The #1 problem in SS , is the supply of Cheap, Low mileage, V8 powered, rear wheel drive, fulll framed, rust free General Motors cars is soon to be exhausted.

Already, rust free Midsized Gm car without a drive train is already getting to cost almost $1,000. Any of these cars that are in good shape are scoped up by street rodders, and made into hot rods for the street.

Many of the Major modified chassis makers say the supply of cheap good frames will be exhausted soon, and are lobbying IMCA to allow tubular front clips.

The main reason I want the Ford frames to be used with a GM Engine and Steel GM style Template Body, or a Ford frame with a Dodge engine and dodge template body is...

COST !

Because the 1998 to 2001 Ford Frame comes with so much good stuff standard from the factory, and low mileage, rust free,and cheap frames are available locally (you do not have to go to Kentucky to get a clean chassis)....

the 1998 to 2001 Ford chassis is much cheaper and easier to build than the Mid sized Gm chassis.

I want to Grow the class, and save the racers MONEY.

The class will not grow if it is based on 20 to 30 year old cars!

In My Humble Opinion.
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 12:58 PM

If tracks do not try to make it EASY and CHEAP to build a STreet stock, eventually car counts will suffer. If tracks write rules that in effect mandate building 20 to 30 year old cars that are getting rare, car counts will drop.

Now lets look at the figure 8 cars...

IMHO, if the track allowed Ford frames to be used under a Chevy Template body/engine. It would open the door to building a Cheap, easy to repair, easy to build, figure 8 car.

the Flat rock Figure 8 cars use a Camaro type body, and the frame can be any type, the frame does not have to match the engine/body.

What we want is High car counts in both the STreet Stocks and the Figure 8's.

By giving these racers a Cheap,easy to build, easy to get chassis, that is also easy and cheap to repair, we help everybody, we could ineffect turn back time ,because we opened up a NEW supply of Cheap, Locally available, Late model, low mileage, Rear wheel drive chassis/frames. Ford is going to build this chassis for the next decade.

this is just my opinion, which may or may NOT be correct
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 01:25 PM

CSC offers a Steel Fabricated Interior kit that is cheap, and installs easy.

go to and scroll down to the middle of the page to see the Fabricated Steel interior kit.

http://www.cscracing.com/ck.htm

to see pictures of this steel interior kit installed go to....

http://www.cscracing.com/tubepics.htm
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Posted 29 July 2004 - 02:00 PM

Here are many pages of pictures of The Flat Rock Street Stock 100 lap event that paid $1,000 to win. flat rock gets about 60 street stocks every sat. night. Last week they had over 70. Every week they have a A, B and C feature race for the street stocks along with a A,B, and C season champion, On a regular race nigh thye only pay $225 to win the A feature and $60 to win the B main, and $35 to win the C main..

also shown are the figure 8 cars ( they have wing where the roof would be) and the 4 cylinder cars....

go to.....

http://www.perfimage...2404/index.html

Flat Rock Street stocks range from Enduro type cars ( c-Main ) to Sportman type cars ( A-feature) .

I built the #7 SS http://www.perfimage...404/160902.html
and the Chassis on the #9 ss
http://www.perfimage...404/160906.html

Both these cars use the 1978 Ford LTD chassis and suspension, the #7 car finished 6th in the 100 lapper.
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Posted 30 July 2004 - 10:46 AM

The meaning of the terms Street stock, Factory stock, sportsman, Prostock vary from track to track and state to state. Over time all these classes evolved and progressed to be more technically advanced.

These Street stocks and factory stocks started out as stock passanger cars with the glass removed and a roll bar added. Then after a few years racers added better springs and shocks, better gear ratios, and better engines.

What really changed the street stocks was the Camaro. Its was soo much better than those old big sedans, soon you needed a Camaro to be fast. The problem was that the Camaros were a Unibody with no full frame, so when they took a big hit, they became junk. Then time kept marching on, and Cheap,low mileage, rust free 1970's Camaros got rare and expensive. As the Local supply of V8 RWD cars dried up, car counts dropped.

In general.....
A Street Stock and a factory stock are WERE very simular to a Enduro Car.
Stock body, floor pan, Firewall,frame, suspension, Minor gutting of the body, stock Cast Iron heads with a Holley 2 barrel carb.



The Sportsman car term goes all the way back to 1959 to 1960.

1955 to 1957 Chevys USED to be called Late Models in the 1950's, but as these cars got OLDER and out dated, local tracks created The Sporstman class for these out dated late models.
Back in the 1960's, a Sportsman car Typically was a 1955 to 1957 Chevy, with a 283 V8 bored out 1/8 "" to get 302 CI.( Later they allowed 327's), They were allowed Racing springs and shocks, SCREW Jacks, a truck floater rear end, Ambulance Tires that were recapped with soft rubber. The body and frame was STock, but modified a bit.

A late model in the 1960's WAS a BIG Block car with at least 427 cubic inches,a Big 4 barrel carb, with a highly modified frame and suspension and a body that was only a few years old, like a 1967 Chevelle, Camaro, or Ford Fairlane. They rode on huge Racing slicks.

The Sportsman class died out in the late 1960's and early 1970's because the HOT, trick car, which was the 1955 to 57 Chevy was getting RARE, People who tried using the Chevelle in sportsmans were getting badly beaten by the old 55 chevys, the chevelle has a 4 link rear suspension that does not work as well as the 55 chevy leaf springs, also the 55 chevy had the engine set back a lot further in the chassis than the chevelle.

sooo in the 1970's Promotors saw that holding on to the Sportsman class which used rare 1955 to 1957 chevyies was a looseer. car counts were declining. But the promotors saw that there was huge Local supply of v8 powered, late model, low mileage, CHEAP, Chevelles around, but no one would build one to compete against a 55 Chevy sportsman.

SSSOOOO.. Being Smart Promotors they created the Street stock or Factory Stock class just for these Chevelles, they even OUT lawed the 55 to 57 chevy from this class by having a rule that said the cars had to be 1960 and NEWER. Well the Street stock class took off like wild fire. Car counts were huge, It was Cheap, and easy. for a few hundred dollars, get a 5 year old chvelle with a 327 or 350 v8, gut it, install a cage, go race. but them came the Camaro, which made all these OLD Chevelles Out dated, and the rest is History.
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Posted 30 July 2004 - 10:48 AM

The Street Stock Delema of the 1980's.....

Well everything was going So well in the 1970's with the Street stocks, high car counts, cheap cars, cheap engines, cars were built like tanks that would last. Everybody had a Chevelle with a Chevy V8. Most tracks had 50 chevelle street stocks. then some Fan in the stands saw Burt Reynolds in the "Smokey and the bandit"" movie and wanted to be Like Burt! and JUST Had to have a Trans AM for his Street stock! Well this car came out and was as fasst as the top chevelles right away!

Now everybody was screaming at the Officials to out law camaros and firebirds. Soon if you wanted to be the fastest you had to have a Camaro.
But these Unibody cars did not last, they were junk after a hard hit.

The tracks were stuck in a tuff spot.

What to do?

in general tracks took one of two paths to bring PARITY between the chevelles and the camaros.

Tracks like auto city went to weight penalties for camaros and a 55% front weight rule.

Tracks like Flat rock changed the Chassis rules to allow the Chevelle street stocks to keep up with the camaros. they allowed the engine to be set back to the #1 spark plug inline with the top ball joint, but more importantly, ALLOWED the use of a 3rd link and a adjustable panhard bar. Everbody was removing their stock chevelle 4 link rear suspension and installed the racing 3 link. Now these modified chevelles were as fast as the camaros BUT were much more durable than the Unibody camaros.

Some tracks renamed the class when they allowed the Modified Chevelles, and called them ""sportsmans"", but Flat rock never changed the name, they kept Street stock.

As a post script......

hind sight is always 20-20.

Flat rock which did not go to weight penalties for camaros but allowed the Chevelles to modify the rear suspension, today gets 60 t0 70 street stocks a night. The A-feature cars LOOK like Template body late models and race for $225 to win.

What the tracks that went to weight penelities for Camaro's did not forsee was, that the local supply of Cheap, late model, Rust free V8 powered RWD Chevies would dry up.

today, any class that is based on 25 to 35 year old Stock Production cars will eventually be short on car counts.
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#12 User is offline   Jay71 Icon

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 10:56 AM

I agree with almost everything you say.....Except letting guys chop their frames....this is called Street STOCK Factory STOCK....That means somthing has to stay STOCK as far as I am concerned.....If you start chopping a frame it is a sportsman....Try taking one of those cars to A/C or Spartan or Owosso...No go!! If you wanna have a unified set of rules all you have to do it unify Auto City and Spartans rules.....Keep Chassis' stock...No Cutting frames, relocation of arms ok if they are solid..No adjustable stuff..like weight jacks, or adjustable rear leaf springs......And also they need to enforce the rules......Dixie and Auto city's rules were suppose to be the same this year but Dixie is letting guys run cars that have been shortened run there.......
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Posted 30 July 2004 - 10:59 AM

for pictures of what 1960's late models and sportsmans used to look like go to ....

http://www.arcaracin...triviamain.html

Click on the Answer/winner icons.
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Posted 30 July 2004 - 11:54 AM

Dear Jay71,

You have to allow them to shorten the wheel base on a full size car frame which is from 115'' to 121''.
A 121 "" wheel base car will not handle and the Five star Steel template body will not fit. you must allow them to shorten the wheel base to 108'' or 105 ''.

The Track must pick a Minimum wheel base of 108'' or 105 ''.

Flat Rock uses the 105 " minumum wheelbase.

Shortening the wheelbase on FORD chassis is VERY EASY. Using your torch, just scraf off the welds that attach the rear clip to the 2'' X 4'' Rectangular tube main frame rails, using your saws all, shorthen the 2x4 main frame rail, slide back on the rear clip, reweld the factory joint.
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Posted 30 July 2004 - 12:46 PM

well lets start, I will show you mine and you show me yours.

IMHO, for 2005 the Unified Street Stock Alliance Series"" USSAS"" rules
should be....



1.) BODIES

Stock Steel production or Template Steel Bodies ( Such as Five Star ).

Unibody Camaros,Firebirds,Novas etc, Can NOT use a fabricated body.

2.) INTERIORS

Stock or Fabricated STEEL interior, Fabricated steel interior must copy the CSC steel interior kit.
Uni-body Camaros, Firebirds, and Novas must retain the FULL Stock Floor pan and fire walls. ONLY full framed cars can have a Fabricated Steel interior.

3.) FRAMES

Stock Passanger Car Perimiter full Frames only,
NO X frames,
NO ladder frames,
NO offset frames.
NO SUV, or truck frames.
Make and model of frame is optional. Frame make does not have to match body. A FORD Crown Victoria Frame is ok under a G.M. or Dodge body. The MAIN frame rails can be shortened to acheive a 105 "" Wheelbase.

Unibody Camaros , Firebirds, Novas,etc.....MUST retain the full stock floor pan and fire walls!


4.)Suspension

Front and rear suspension Must be stock and standard for that year, make, and model of Frame.

NO relocated suspension pivot points.

Springs and shocks must mount in stock location. Racing springs and shocks allowed. Rear screw jacks allowed.

Stock steering only, no rack and pinion steering allowed.

Wheel base is 105'' Minimum.


5) ENGINE

Stock Cast iron block and heads, No roller lifers, Holley 500 cfm 2 barrel only. dual exhaust with mufflers with a 2 inch O.D. maximum outlet.
Engine make must match the body make. GM body = Gm engine dodge body = dodge engine, ford body = ford engine.

WEIGHT,

3,300 pounds minumum.
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Posted 31 July 2004 - 10:46 PM

You're right Tricknology, I wish we could mix and match driveline and frames. I have Ford lower control arms in my B-body chassis and I would like to have a 9" rearend but the cost is too much right now. Some guys run Pinto spindles and various other parts on their GM chassis and it would be a lot easier to just start with a Ford frame.

This weekend I saw a testament to the Ford's strength at the demolition derby in Munger. I have never seen so many LTDs' in all the years I've been going there. Most of them including the eventual feature winner were mid eighties cars with Chevy drivetrains. At the end of the night when compared the their metric GM counterparts it was obvious who had the stronger frames.
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Posted 02 August 2004 - 11:10 AM

The only question I have with your rules is why can't Camaros or Firebirds have template bodies or fabricated interiors. I know I was thinking of installing one this winter on my car. The prices for body parts are just as much as one for a template body, with less pain in making a junkyard piece work on a car. Plus 97' Camaro looks a hell of alot more nicer than a 78'.
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Posted 02 August 2004 - 12:48 PM

I do have to agree with Chris on this one, What really does a fabbed interior on ANY car matter, I undertstand trying to hide things such as MSD, etc etc, but I think templates should be allowed on all cars or no cars...
- Kyle Callahan
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2013 - Owosso Kart Speedway - Flathead Track Champion
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Posted 02 August 2004 - 02:20 PM

Mr. Block head asked a very important question.......

'''The only question I have with your rules is why can't Camaros or Firebirds have template bodies or fabricated interiors. I know I was thinking of installing one this winter on my car. The prices for body parts are just as much as one for a template body, with less pain in making a junkyard piece work on a car. Plus 97' Camaro looks a hell of alot more nicer than a 78'.""

Well I will try to answer your question from a technical and historical perspective, then we will cover the ""Goal "" or "'The vision thing"".

Technically, a Camaro street stock that has the Factory stock Firewalls and Floor pan removed is Just llike a ( limited ) late model with a stock front clip, and leaf springs. It would be an Offset chassis with a fabricated tubular center section. A car like this, would have a big advantage over a Stock passanger car perimeter chassis. Would you want to race your full framed street stock car against a limited late model?

Historically, this is what happened on the Dirt tracks, they kept allowing the camaros to use less and less of the stock floor pan and fire wall untill after just a few short years, they were full blown Limited Late models running in the Street stock class, and the full framed cars were obsolite.




Now what is the Goal or the Vision of these NEW rules?


Is it to create a class dominated by a Fabricated stock front clip chassis that uses a 25 year old Camaro front clip? answer, No.

Is it to create a class based upon a passanger car Chassis that is, Cheap, Late model, low mileage, Stock production, locally available in large numbers, easy and cheap to build and repair. ??? ( and that chassis would be the FORD Crown Vic chassis. ) Answer - YES.

IMHO, For the Street stock division to grow, an Alternative to the Camaro street stock must be found. the Camaro is too old and too rare and too costly to build today. The street stock class must find a chassis that works as well as a Camaro, but is a passanger car frame that is Cheap, low mileage,late model,easy to get, build, and repair.

Some day, the Camaro must be phased out as the Dominate street stock, or the division will die due to low car counts.

this is my humble opinion, which can be questioned.
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#20 User is offline   KCR87 Icon

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 02:38 PM

lol I only see the camaro car count only GROWING at tracks, I think Greg and the Auto City gang will tell ya, about 20 of the starting 24 in the feature are all camaros

I mean I remember the camaros of this class just starting really getting noticed within the last 5-7 years I remember back in the 2000-2003 the camaro count at auto city prolly went up by 20 cars

lets look at there points

1. Larry Plamondon
3. Jeff Owens
5. Dave Christensen
6. Jay Woolworth
7. Rob Blandino
12. Ed Newman Jr
13. Bob Schuh
15. Corey Hurley
16. Kevin Duncan
17. Russ Dice
20. Harry Ward
21. Ed Newman Sr
22. Rick Smith
23. Al Boitel Jr
24. Steve Hiney
25. Rick Crisel
26. Rob Sullivan
27. Scott Arden
30. Aaron Greenfield
34. Jim Miller Jr.

and the list goes on and on

if i am correct about 30 of the 61 on the auto city points are all camaros thats just about half of them, with 5 in the top 10, i think the camaros are the key to sucess in the street/factory stock division

i think you do have a point with the camaros fading off, but i still think they are the present and will be the future of the class
- Kyle Callahan
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