It is no secret that the Super Late Model car count has been suffering this season at Spartan. It isn't the only track that has been below expectations for this division, but it is the first one suffering to have actual interaction with all it's SLM drivers, and is willing to try some ideas and remain opened minded to try to find a means to an end, for the survival of this division. Below is a quote from our General Manger, Jim Leasure.

"August 10th we are opening things up a little for the Supers. We will be running Hoosier 970 tires. The reason is Kalamazoo is off the 11th and a few of those guys are coming over. Conversations with 2004 SLM Champion, Harry Foote Jr., has helped set this arrangement up for the SLM class It's a little risky but what are we going to do? 8-10 SLM cars is nothing to brag about, and is not good for the class, or the track. I met with our regular Super drivers Friday and did not get much resistance, actually it was pretty acceptable."

I know I am biased, but this is just a small example of the things that Jim Leasure does for our sport. Instead of getting mad at the situation, he is looking forward as to what it is that he can do to try and keep the Super's on the Spartan racing card as a every week division.

I applaud Jim's efforts.

Your thoughts and comments are welcomed here, and will be relayed back to Jim.

Big Ed

I think that is a great idea! We run 970's at Angola in the supers and I have to admit at first I was a little nervous about running a 9" tire, but they are not that hard to get hooked up and they last forever and do not fall off with heat cycles. We had our 18 degree motor break and ran our SB2 with these tires and did not have too much trouble hooking it up. In fact the more laps you put on them the better they are. We still practice on the first set that we bought in April. Our qualifying times fell off an average of about 3/4 second from the qualifying times with 10" EC21 & 31's but it makes for some tight racing because it seems to level the field a little.

Necessity is the mother of Invention. You need more cars? Find a way that will bring them in! Are the current rules holding you back? Change 'em! I agree Ed.... creative thinking will save the day.

This could possibly be the best idea anyone has ever had to help save the SLM division at Spartan.

Tires that last longer is an obvious winner, but also less traction = less motor needed to run good. So now, any decent modified motor or sportsman motor can be competitive in the SLM division.

I hope the drivers agree to adopt this change permanently.

Mike

Hey Big Ed,

Will all SLM's need to purchase 970's for this night or will the "regulars" run their McCreary's against the Hoosier 970's?

Thanks,

Brian

Brian,

This will be a 970 night. Jim has, or is, working to get some 970's for any of regulars who can't get them. And some slightly used ones for those who can't afford them. Jim talked to all the SLM drivers before he sent this idea into motion to make sure all that wanted to participate in this"test", would have the means to do so.

Another interesting fact about this trial is that all Spartan regular SLM drivers wanted this race to also be a POINTS race night. Even though we are going to be on a completely different tire. This surprised me some, but it is getting late in the season, and there isn't many points nights left. Just thought it was interesting.

This nights racing is NOT limited to just Spartan & K-zoo drivers. Any SLM competitor who chooses to try and run the 970 at Spartan is welcomed to come and play on the 10th.

Big Ed

Spartan is on the right track, with the 970 tire drivers won't be able to get as much power to the ground. Which should tight up the field. It won't be so much about who can spend more money on motor. Good call spartan staff!!

That sounds like a great idea to bring in more cars for the fans. It looks like you Spartan guys have the fans in mind, and it is always nice to seea race track going out of there way to try something new for the fans. So I comend your efforts! Not that my opinion is some how expressing superior knowledge or anything, I'm just thinking of how nice of a effort it is.

Maybe a weight break for iron head wet sump motors would help add to the car count. I would like a super but can't see spending a small fortune on a motor.I thought the klash was a good race on the 970 but it looked like most had a 2 bbl on but I am not sure. They didn't sound the same and seemed to be a little flat on the straight aways.

Ed,

I believe the date is 8/10, not the 13th, as the topic says.

Dan

Topic header has been fixed.

Good catch Mr. Logan.

I do believe they are looking into this also Dick. I will post the information once I learn it, or maybe Bill will if he stumbles upon this thread.



Sorry about the wrong date. I looked at July instead of August calender when I first posted it. Dah!!! Thanks for catching my error, and fixing it too Dale.
Now, mark it down, I have admitted when I was wrong!!!! That's for all those who think I think I'm never wrong. I am. Plenty!!!!

Big Ed

Oh you're so wrong BidEd

Actually, he was simply mistaken....

Jeff Finley has enlightened me on the wet sump ruling that Dick was asking about:

"Your post on the michigan short track web site needs to say 2650 lbs for cast iron motors with wet sump and 2750 for aluminum headed dry sump motors.Thanks jeff"

I hope that answers your question Dick!!!

This topic is about the SLM division. Dick is also talking about the SLM division and he made a good point about wet sump motors.

This isn't about mods, or the mod tires. Everyone settle down...


Mike

Dick,

First of all let me say that I am very glad you are all right, and did not injure yourself worse than you described. I know we battle back and forth on here, and most folks think we hate each other, but nothing could be further from the truth. You might not always come across sweet and innocent, but I know your heart is really trying to look out for all the racers. So, I am glad your able to be walking after a crash like that. I've had friends that were not so lucky after their motorcycle accidents. I mean, you must be careful. You can't leave here, who else can fight with me like you do??? LOL Seriously, I'm very glad it wasn't worse!!!!

What would be YOUR suggestion to the dry sump/wet sump scenario??? And I am not being sarcastic either (like you may expect) I am truly wanting to hear your opinion. Your vast knowledge is always appreciated by myself, and others too. Now I can't tell you they will follow your suggestions, but to hear them won't cost anyone a penny. So please feel free to enlighten me on this subject. I will pass along your ideas and suggestions.

Big Ed

Everybody thinks that adding weight is the ultimate cure to even out a class where there are differences between the cars. Here's an idea that is likely better and doesn't cost anybody anything:

For the cars that have all the goodies, dry sump, aluminum heads, etc, make them raise their cars up to something like 4 inches ground clearance at the frame instead of the current 3 inches. Also make them lay the spoiler back so that it is no more than 40 inches from the ground to the top.

For the stock front clips, wet sumps, iron heads, etc, let them run lower and with the spoiler up in the air if they want to.

If you reduce the gripping ability a little on the good cars, you might slow them down enough to where the lesser cars have a chance.

Remember one thing: No matter what you try, you can't speed up the lesser cars. You have to slow down the faster cars.

I know there are arguments to this such as the guys with the lesser cars need to get better stuff. But it never seems to happen.

-Maurice

This topic has been split between the differing opinions by racing class.

Thank you Scotty, please keep the comments coming as they pertain to the Super Late Model class at Spartan!!!

Big Ed,

My bad.



I think the 970 will do wonders for the class at Spartan, they work just fine at K-Z00. I'm just not sure if it's worth all the time to come up with weight breaks and what not. If they're are enough people and resources to tech the cars it would be great. Dick brought up a great point about the wet sump versus the dry sump. It's huge on the race track. What about a mandated 2bbl on the "faster" cars with the dry sumps and aluminum heads. Let the lesser cars keep there 4bbl, and see what happens with a little more of a weight break. If you can get the cars competitive, then cars will show up to race. Who likes to get and lap the field every night. One or two maybe but not all.

I read where Dick says adding 100 lbs. to dry sump guys isn't enough. Well K-Zoo has given a weight break for a few years now and things are VERY equal down there. The #46 car that Hank Miller used to drive and is now driven by Dave Sensiba is basically a LLM (if I'm wrong someone correct me) and that car has won a lot down there. That is not the only wet sump or steel head car running down there. Some are 5" coil cars as well.

Here is K-Zoo's weight rule -

Minimum weight to be checked before qualifying and before the start of the feature. Weights will be as follows: Cars with cast iron heads and no dry sump systems will weigh 2700lbs, cars with aluminum heads & no dry sump systems or cars with cast iron heads & a dry sump system will weigh 2750lbs, cars with aluminum heads & dry sumps will weigh 2800lbs.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

Funny how the tire game is... we tried running the 970 at Sprintport some years ago...wow, what a mess that was..i have heard that they are better now. The old IMARC was a good tire until they changed them for what we heard was "environmental" reasons...they went from lasting 4 or 5 nights to 1 or 2.

The way i see it, make rules the same acrossed the board for the Supers(alliance???)....all tracks no matter who the tire guy is...something’s got to give here. The supers need a tire that doesn't fall off after one night and can be run for 2 weeks...period, that's the only way you'll save anyone money on tires besides having a 2 tires per night rule...you may cost the tire guy some but were not here for him....were here for the well being of the sport/hobby in the local area.

If i had the money and you give me a 9" tire, i would simply build a smaller engine that i could spin to the moon to hook the thing up and still make good power. Look at what they do at berlin(a slick track).... 300 cu" or less engines for the supers???..Baker will probably sell you one for $30K. The tire rule will only level the playing field for those that don't have the optimum combination for the tire/track surface. Next year the same guys will be fast again, cause they went and built new engines to work better with the tire they are on...just like everyone has done at berlin and k-zoo....but then maybe that's what needs to be done at least everyone is back on the same tire again and can travel around more.

I would venture a prediction for this upcoming event, but i'll hold off on that.

I could go on, but i think i'll stop there before i get too crazy.

Or if you were trying to be more logical, you could just use a way cheaper engine and not try to "spin it to the moon".

Anyone could build you one instead of wasting $30,000.

Mike

Mike,

Sometimes you need to think outside the box... In the end build what you want. Notice i said "if i had the money"...i don't and It's really not about the money, i can probably find all the parts to build the same thing myself on ebay and a few other sources for way less than the example $30K... my thinking is mechanical...optimizing the system for what is given to us. Some guys will go out and spend $5K-30K with who ever if they feel the power and durability are there.

Maybe i am trying to predict the future... but the trend will be(without further engine rules) to smaller engines if you limit the tires....the fast guys will turn the rpm and the slow guys will keep spining them to 7 or 7500 rpm just like always. It's worked that way in just about any form of racing i've been involved with when you are traction limited. Your run of the mill 410 or 383 may be too much.....the guys with the 355-377's will be in decent shape.

With that said, the guys coming in from Kzoo and berlin are going to have an advantage since they have been on those tires....it's going to take some time for those that haven't run them to catch up. Now this may not be as much of a factor at Spartan as it would be for someone trying to run Kzoo or berlin for the first time on these tires. But like i said, if it finally gets us to a common tire rule state wide, then great....lets keep it that way.

It's the combination that wins, it's not a motor. ESPECIALLY on a 1/4 mile track with 9" tire.

Thinking outside the box is how I found success...

Imagine trying to run a SLM at Spartan on 9" tires using the most radical 400+cid SB2 you could come up with. Doesn't sound like it would be easy to drive does it.

What if you changed the gearing to kill off some low end, and then put a smaller carb on to keep it from coming alive halfway down the straight? That would be much better wouldn't it?

Torque is controllable by gearing, so I don't believe that the displacement of the motor is going to be the critical factor. What's going to be critical is the cam, the cam timing, and to a lesser extent things like header primary size, and intake runner size. Then the throttle linkage has to be set up properly, and the driver has to do his job.

But since the amount of peak power needed will be reduced, engine costs should be reduced (by those who don't want to waste money), and the engine maintenance should be reduced along with it. Which means, a guy like me could now come up with a decent SLM and be competitive for far less money because of the tire.

Mike

I didnt build my motor and super late model to run on a 970.


It is the reason we have not been to Kalamazoo, Angola or any other track that is going to run those tires. I am certainly not a big budget team nor do I run a big cubic inch motor but I do have horse power and expect a good tire to race on.


Kalamazoo just turned their supers into their limited class and killed any outsiders from coming there.

No disrespect intended, but do you think this could be part of what's wrong with the SLM class as a whole? No-one wants to run on an economy tire, and less and less big money shows are being run due to the financial situation that the tracks are facing. So there's all these special-built cars sitting around doing nothing because they are to special to race on 970's which would save them money.

I'm sure that everyone can agree on one thing.... the 970 will put more emphasis on driver skill and chassis set-up. The best DRIVER with the best setup will win every time.

If I had a SLM I would take it as an awesome challenge rather than taking it as an insult to what my car was built for and staying at home.

Also, what about attracting new people to our sport? Do you think that running on an economical tire that requires less engine might be more attractive to a potential racer in our current state of economy?

I think we are facing a "how do we re-grow it" situation rather than worrying about all the cars that are sitting around waiting for a special big purse race.

Spartan Speedway SLM's on 970's would be a great class for a once per week racer with a family. And he could go to Kalamazoo with it as well.

Mike

I'm sure that everyone can agree on one thing.... the 970 will put more emphasis on driver skill and chassis set-up. The best DRIVER with the best setup will win every time.


Right on!!!

What do you think it is now? Do you think somehow the tire is what is making the class something it is not?


Hell no, the bottom line is, super late models are tougher to win in than any other class period. The competition is extremely tough.


If I wanted to race on a 970 tire I would have kept my mod or build a LLM, thats all that K zoo did, they didnt reinvent the wheel they combined a class and penalized the supers that had Aluminum heads and a dry sump, so that way they could pigeon hole those drivers into running their tracks, M40 and Kzoo.


I am sorry but the tires for a 970 are still 110 bucks at most places and you will waste at least 2 or 3 tires in a long race and since we run 100 laps most of the time well you are buying tires anyways.


Dont tell me that a 970 tire would make a better show, I came from 4th to 3rd at owosso this year and passed in both grooves is that not a good show?

The point is if I wanted to pay $440 for a 9" tire I would do it in another class.


Spartan does not pay enough money to bring a super out anyways, I am not knocking Spartan, that is all they can afford so maybe if they developed rules like K zoo it would help their car counts I dont know but I doubt it.

For me I would not mind going to Kzoo for the big money shows, I have gone before but now they kept most of the Berlin guys and east siders away and Berlin has always been a place that you typically cant run with a motor that makes alot of HP so now they go to a goofy tire rule and change some other rules and keep us away more.

So, Dixie, Flint, Owosso, Toledo and Flat Rock still run us on a tire that I will show up and race on.


I know a driver I spoke to at Dixie and wont say his name because of who he is but he thought the car was ok on the 970's until he went to toledo and realized what a waste of time they were.

Any time you take away tire, the harder the car is going to drive and wont't be able to use as much horsepower!! Set-up will be a much bigger deal because there won't be that big tire to help ya going into the corner! There use to be 30-40 supers, now your luckly to get 15 cars. And there is only about 5-7 good supers around any away.

There could be lots of tracks that high payout classes could run. All it would take would be for each car to have an entry fee of about 5% of the proposed purse based on a minimum of 20 cars. $10000.00 purse = $500.00 entry fee.

I agree. Maybe it's because the cars are all so hooked up on wide tires that driver and setup aren't quite as critical. Mods don't have as much tire...maybe that's why after about 10 laps, the poorly set-up cars start to fall off very quickly.

Don't take offense, but if Supers are so tough, why didn't you dominate every time you hit the track in your mod? Because mods are harder to drive and much more critical and finicky setup-wise.

You do great in your super, and yes you put on a great show. But I guess we'll never really agree on what real racing is or what racing is supposed to be for and about.

Mike

Would you rather out spend your competition? Or out drive them.

Theres is no better way to sum it all up in one simple sentence. I'll choose the driving.

Mike

Mike when I set fast time in my mod at Dixie and Auto City and set the track Record and won on the same night from the middle of thepack when I was in my MOD does that mean I was just better than everyone for the 04 season or something? NO


I have raced in Street stocks, Limiteds, Mods, Supers, Hooters Cup, ICEMAN and ARCA so since you nor Joe have raced in that many classes I feel like maybe I should be allowed to voice my opinion without offending you guys that I am looking down on MODS because I am not.


Joe I am really shocked to hear that feel there are only 5-7 good supers out there, the super class is great because there are many great cars and it is hard to beat JOE SCHMOE anymore.

I will list a few guys and you tell me which you think are really good cars

Harold Fair Jr.
Dave Kuhlman
Steve Sauve
John Grega
John Doering
John Bellot
Mike Luberda
Scott Hantz
Johnny Van Doorn
Norm Davis
Brent Jack
Claude Plante
Jay Reinbold
Fred Campbell
Brian Campbell
Eric Lee
Doug Finley
Jack Varney
Todd Rosebrugh
Phil Massuch


The list is way bigger but that is a small portion of the people I race against off of the top of my head.


I dont like the idea of racing on a 970 tire, since I have a voice as do others that race in supers I felt it is important for the drivers of the division to make our feelings known instead of fans opinions on tires or people that dont run supers. Thats all I am saying

I didn't make that very clear did I... I didn't intend to mean that you weren't good, or even great. You made it sound like anyone who is even half -decent in a SLM could come into any other class and win every race. So that's why I made that statement.

Mike

Mike could you please tell me where you thought that I was saying a super driver could dominate in a mod please?

You aren't allowed to try and pin me down on stuff like this...lol.

Maybe I read too much into what you were saying about the SLM division being so hard to win in.

Mike

Claude,

I respect your opinion and your allowed to race wherever you want, and if you choose not to run on a certain tire, then so be it. But remember, it is YOUR opinion, not that of everyone else's. As the thread is entitled, Spartan is "testing the waters" to see what we can do to improve our situation in the future. Harry Foote come to Jim with this. Is it a bad idea??? Or do you think it is healthy to look to other avenues to try and repair a class that ONCE was the draw, and the top of the heap when it came to local short track racing. We have to do something, or we will be just like everybody else in the State, and NOT being running them EVERY Friday night. And to be honest with you, I now need it proven to me that the Supers are the big draw on a weekly basis that so many people THINK they are. I look at our grandstands and don't see any huge differences because they are there every week. Now, bring in a Figure 8 race. I need not say anymore.

I have always loved the Super Late Models and I always will. But I now also understand that you cannot expect a promoter to take a beating at the pay window every weekend to satisfy what I see as just a handful of fans. I wouldn't do it. And now throw in the possibility of bad weather............................................

This should be fun tonight. I hope all the drivers that said they were going to come, do. We had less than 20 cars for the Chargin' Charlie Ryan Jr. Memorial, and to me, that was just SAD. Let's hope that this is a beginning to an end as far as bad Super car counts go.

Big Ed

Thats why I said I am offering my opinion of it Ed. I am not bashing Spartan in any way. When you talk about Spartan and Supers they are a totally different situation, the track is much slower, the corner speeds are not a concern like they are at other tracks.


Most of the people that were talking about it were not super drivers so I was lending my voice

The turn out was the best Spartan's had all year. Despite our car trouble it was a great race. Stehouwer was completely screwed out of his win over Gallagher, but things happen.

This thread has brought back a conversation I had with a good friend of mine back in 1992. That was 15 years ago, wow.

I sat in the hauler with Randy Hosler, ( to those of you who do not remember, Randy was the premier super outlaw car owner during his time ). Dennis Berry drove for him and then Freddy Campbell, who won tons of races for him in his race cars. We talked about the Super class and we both agreed, that in time we will see a steady decline in super numbers. In time we will witness this division going from weekly to specials only. And both of agreed that this was due to the high costs of building and then racing a super. The division was just starting to suffer then and would only get worse. The handwriting was on the wall then and unfortunately both of our predictions came true. Even back in the 90's Randy started cutting back his schedule. If they didn't put his cars on good tires and guarantee a certain purse, he never loaded his car. It stayed parked. His thinking was that " it costs me XXX number of dollars to roll that car off the trailer and onto the track. If the track isn't paying a certain amount, then it isn't worth me loading and going ". When the pay started to decline, he up and sold out completely. He was plain and simply burnt out from racing and all the costs.

Today we see supers sitting in shops for long extended periods of time. They get rolled out when the starting money and the tire rules make it advantageous. Otherwise, they stay parked and covered. To be perfectly honest, if I owned a super again right now I would leave mine parked as well. The only time it would roll out of the barn is when the money paid decent and I had a proven championship caliber driver to drive it ( A Kortz, Felver, Massuch, Campbell or Grega ).

I see three classes of Supers out there. Berlin cars ( which are all high dollar, up to date pieces of equipment ) that stay put and do the weekly thing. Then you have Toledo / Dixie cars that roll out only for specials and again are high HP up to date best of the best equipment. Then you have Zoo/Angola/Spartan cars. With a few exceptions, these cars typically have less HP, an older chassis and less expensive parts. For the most part Spartan cars are raced by budget racers. These guys do not have the cash to compete against a Freddy or a John Grega. They race what they can afford and they enjoy doing what they do. I have a lot of respect for these guys.

It's no secret that hard core super drivers like Grega, Campbell and others refuse to race on anything but a slick. A big slick. And then there are budget racers who will give the 970 a go and try it out. I believe Spartan knows this and they know they will not bring in some of the outside boys. They are targeting a segment of supers that WILL race on the 970.

I do not fault Claude for not wanting to run on the 970. He was raised on slicks, likes the feel of them on a super and likes the handling characteristics of it. He also has a ton of cash invested in his car so his choices are his own. But in defense of Jimmy Leisure and Spartan, they have got to do something. Their market IS the budget racer and they have got to get costs in line to maintain their super division. If they don't, they will go down the road like other tracks.

My point is that the dynamics of super racing is astounding. Some travel, some don't. Some will run on anything, others will only do slicks. Some have the budget for the exotic pieces, others don't. But I know one thing for sure, after years of experience in this division, being a super owner twice and marketing this division the one thing you cannot do is throw all the supers into one category. They are different strokes for different racers.

I applaud the Spartan gang for doing what they are doing. Their backs are against the wall and they HAVE to react. Doing nothing will only result in one more track saying goodbye to this division.

Kudo's Jimmy and Bill for stepping forward.

Chris

You can go back to the Iceman days and see what this rule did to the cost of engines. Guys spending $ 3 k on heads now were spending $ 7 k and up to get them to flow better with the restriction. This is what ushered in the $ 35 K 23 degree motors.

I have never liked the rule of choking the engine through carb restrictions. It does nothing but make engine builders richer.

I do like Maurice's suggestion with spoilers and such. I personally would like to see it done and know how it would work out.

I do know this much, if I owned a high HP motor and got thrown onto 970's I would dial a lot of the HP out of the engine and find a driver who knows how to drive and feather a car around in circles. This 970 rule is going to show who can drive and who cannot. HP will not be as big a factor.

Chris

"The turn out was the best Spartan's had all year. Despite our car trouble it was a great race. Stehouwer was completely screwed out of his win over Gallagher, but things happen. "


Just an explaination on last nights finish......

The transponder system is the greatest thing ever invented for timing and scoring of races. But when the finish is going to be close, it needs to be eyeballed to assure the proper finish. Last night, four sets of eyes, all who were in the tower and all who were looking right at the start finish line with no angle, called the 25 the winner over the 33. The 33 wasn't completely screwed out of his win....simply the correct call was made.

Just for my information, where was this person standing at the checkers last night?

What is the cost difference from a set of the Hoosier slicks and 970's, just out of curiosity.

Bill or any other official at Spartan, last nights racing was very good. As for the SLM finish, how about having the photographer standing right at the finish line and take a photo of all finishes (don't always know when one will be as close as last nights) then the drivers would have proof of who won and people couldn't dispute photographic evidence (although I'm sure someone would).

Some of the drivers that showed up last night -
Harry Foote, Bud Perry, Dave Stehouwer, Doug Finley, Chad Finley, AJ Foote, Bill Ledwedge, Dave Sensiba, Bob Bauer, Jeff Brundt, Jon McNett, Jimmy Galagher, Evan Barrett there were others I think a total of 19.

You know, I really don't care who won or lost, I think the big winners were the fans!!!! The largest field of the season (19 not great but much better than the normal 8 to 10), and good close racing with a super tight finish after 40 laps. Besides a photo type finish, 3rd and fourth were right on their bumpers. I am not going to pass judgement on who, if anybody got screwed as I did not have a straight on view of the finish. With Saturday night tracks such as Kalamazoo, Angola and Owosso all running the 970's, it should be a no brainer as to which tire to run on Friday nights when you're struggling to get cars. As has been previously said, I applaud the management at Spartan for not being afraid to try something to see if it works. If last night was any indication of what the races on 970's can be, the stands and parking lot may soon be full again! Just my thoughts and thanks for an enjoyable evening of racing. Marty Blume

Claude, I miss spoke you only get 5-7 good cars to show up on a giving night. Unless you go to the Glass City 200 at Toledo at the end of the year! If those cars you posted show up to all the races togther you won't having this conversation. Now make a list of those guys that are useing traction control in supers.

I am glad that spartan had a good car count lst night. I did talk to Doug Finley to get his opinion on the tires, we talked about it for a while. Since he is a long time spartan guy I felt he was a good one to ask. It is though not my place to share his feelings.


The cost difference between the 970's and the 45 and 35 we run is about 20-30 per set depending on who is selling them. Just for the record I qualified and raced last night on used tires.


Joe as far as the drivers that are running TC I cant say because I have not teched nor looked for it, I can say that some of the cars I race with have been caught at Toledo within the last year with it.