At Crystal this last weekend I was watching the Late Models run there and there are a few things fishy going on there I believe. For one there was a driver for some miracle reason has now got his restarts were he can get excellent jumps on people. But if you were there earlier in the season he would just spin the tires off of restarts. But what is really funny is the car makes a curious noise, now maybe I was imagining things Saturday night but I am sure I didn't imagine it three restarts in a row.. Now if that isnt something to ponder about!!!!!

Would that be the 0x? Come on, name names.

A/C has the same problem with some mods!!

What mods are those Joe, come on name, names or numbers will work LOL

They drive supers too!!

Oh so thats the reason most of you guys just Block and don't race,

no its not the 0X of Zach Olger! I've seen him race, his car as of lately doesnt seem to be runnin as smooth as it usually does looks like he has a shock or a car that isnt balanced correctly due to the bouncing front end through corners and he is usually always good and clean, no it is another of the front runners there that night. I know i cant be the only one that heard the mysterious noise that occurs when you run a system that shouldnt be in the car!!!!!!! it sounds like TC for you that werent sure what kind of noise im talking about!

You joined today, come on here behind a screen name, make some horrible accusations, and think it is going to hit the fan? Grow a pair and call Ron Flinn and tell him what you believe or keep it to yourself. You can't even say the words... 'traction control.' I wasn't there Saturday but be assured that in the current set of drivers, you need more than traction control... you need ability.

If you don't have the courage to call Ron yourself, drop me the name of the alleged villain and I'll call him... my email is bmoc66@gmail.com Everyone knows who I am... I use my NAME... unlike you. Unless you call the track or email me, I don't think we should have to listen to any more drivel out of you. I despise cowards that hide behind keyboards.... and yes... go ahead and call Ron and tell him I called you a coward. He needs a good laugh every day or so.

I was thinking the same thing V.

I watched the LM race and I didn't hear anything out of the ordinary. Now, the reason I said Ox was because about 3 weeks ago when he would come into turn one it sounded like the motor was retarding every time. But I haven't heard it since. I am pretty confident Zach wouldn't run that. He just likes to run his car hard because he is a tough competitor. Could have been the break in the wall at the flag stand also.

Yo Todd! Think anyone could pull the wool over Bob Nieman's eyes when it comes to teching LM's? What did he have?... 27 continuous years of attendance? Nearly all in the upper classes? or do you believe as I do that some one got real bold behind a keyboard?

mod4

your making yourself sound pretty stupid

Lots of new people popping up and talking trash lol

Is it that time of the year already? I was hoping we'd have until the end of the season until the crazyness started.

Let me get this started.

Berlin is going to dirt next year.
Kern is going to buy AC and Owosso. AC will run Friday. Dixie Saturday and Owosso Sunday.
Merritt is going to be paved.
Traction control will be allowed in Pure Stock class only at every track in the state.
The state will begin regulating the racing industy to ensure fairness.
Tony Stewart is looking at buying Tri-City.
"I got screwed" will be heard from racers at Dixie, Owosso, AC and Mt. Pleasant.
My dad can beat up your dad.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

leave Mr Hornish out of this please

On a more serious note, I'm sure that there are some local drivers running traction control at some tracks, but if you spend enough money the tech guys will never find it. I just go by what I've always been told. The only car that you should be worried about is the one with your name above the door.

That's the thinking I've been trying to get through to people ever since I joined this club when I was a rookie.

Mike

Well there really is only 2 tracks that are prepared to find traction control. Those tracks are Toledo and Flat rock.


Both tracks have caught people in the last 2 seasons. Some of the people caught do race at Dixie and Auto City and even Angola. Now the way the rules read at Toledo and FR if you have the wiring in your car that is capable of installing a unit to it that is the same as having it in their eyes. So they take your entire electrical system.


Great rules, even better tech, by far the most legal cars race at Toledo. If you cheat you are damn good lol

You can spend all you want, but It can still be found.

Sounds like someone has a grudge against the place or someone.

I've heard cars that were running traction control and or a rev limiter. Once you hear that noise, you'll never forget it. Now I realize I have not been at Crystal in two weeks but when I AM there, I am within 10 feet of the track in an area that traction control or a rev limiter would be used. I've never heard it at Crystal.

Our Late Model tech guy has been in racing longer than most of our members have been alive. Bob is a quiet guy but Bob is an intelligent guy. He doesn't talk to people during the Late Model races, he is watching and listening. Most nights, he is within 30 feet of me and I can see him scanning the field.

I know for a fact that many of the cars at Berlin run TC and they sound no different than any other car?

Whats stupid is the teams that are running TC shouldn't have too!! They have better cars than most that are racing, there is no doubt they would win races with out TC.

Is it every team that has a super and a mod? I hope we don't have traction control, or we suck more than I already thought we did!

Ray

Isn't TC legal at Berlin??

Just a stupid question but, how can you tech for traction control?




Greg

Look in ignition boxes or anywhere iginition wires run to. Distributor, plug wires etc.

I thought the same thing also Ed, I thought I heard it was legal.

No, not you Ray.

ok cool, I was gonna go home and start looking, If I had it I would sell it and be able to buy another car.

Ray

TC has been a topic of discussion over the last few years no doubt. I look at it this way. If I am competing and beating the folks who have TC then I find it as egg on their face. Because of living out of state I have no clue who has it and what tracks allow it. That is my two cents.

BTW: The person who called Mod 4 stupid. He already knows that so tell him something else.

Chad Faur

Good to hear from ya, Chad!!

MOD4

in my opinion accusing someone of having tc is a strong accusation are your opinions based on facts or opinions
you have narrowed your accusations down to a pretty small number of competitors

havent heard of anyone getting caught at Auto City so i dont know where you can come up with these assumptions

AutoCityfan43, Sure its my opinion as well 90% of others at A/C, others don't the balls to say anything just like you don't have the balls to put your name on your posts. Two weeks ago I'am sitting in the stands watching the modified feature, and during the feature I stated to my wife " Wow!! Look at that car it doesn't even spin the tires, passing cars with its right side tires in the marbles off of turn 4!!", never even said a car number!! Well Sam O'Conner happen to be sitting two rows in front of me. He turns around and says "Well that car weighs 2,600 lbs!", I told him my mod weighs the same and it still gets loose off the corner. That just one example from this summer. There has been many other times things have looked fishy this summer, like when your super shows up. I know you (they) could win races with and without TC, no doubt in my mind.

There should be a way to swap iginition boxs, tach, and what every else needs to be swap! Techs at A/C (or any other track) have the right to make guys swap boxs or ect. If they feel some one is cheating, with out that person getting all pissed off!! There is some new techonogly coming out hopefully by next summer to check TC!

That was a great race with the #21 last week, I notice the car was a little loose off!!

If the car your talking about regularly runs Toledo it doesnt have TC they will catch it. If it is the car I think your talking about Joe, after having long discussions with their head mechanic I dont think your right, but you never know. It is funny hearing a guy talk about needing to get that miss fixed every week. I hear that from a FS competitor.

The car doesn't run at Toledo.

Than it is not who I thought you were talking about. Joe you gotta get a bigger sponsor!!!!!!!!!!! You guys start out by over spending on your horsepower, and now overspending to keep it on the ground. I guess thats why your CIRCLE track racers. You keep going in circles.

IMHO, THE ONLY way to get rid of all traction control cheating is to MANDATE a 1960's Low tech mechanical point breaker distributor and a Single ingnition coil.

Traction control is so easy to hide that even high tech racing orgs such as F1 have just given up and allow it.

Any system that uses Electronics ( MSD HEI ) to open and close the 12 volt circuit feeding the ingnition coil can be easily converted to traction control,,thats why mandating a points distributor would eliminate cheating.

see the folloing links for more info,,,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_control

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/28000-tracti...l-explained.htm

http://www.moretraction.com/

http://www.techwestracing.com/page20.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1762789

WAVE YOUR TRACTION CONTROL WAND

INEX Attempts To Curb Cheating With New Toy

By Jason Buckley
Traction control is something many cars have that drive the roads of America today. If the car’s computer detects one tire is slipping more than the others, it varies control and power to the wheels to stabilize the vehicle and provide better control under slick conditions. The invention of traction control has helped those unable to control their car on slick surfaces feel like Superman on the roads across the country with limited slip.

In motorsports, some international road racing series allow the use of traction control. In some of the series, it is necessary to get the cars hooked up and be competitive. However, many series across the country forbid the use of traction control devices, leaving the control of the car in the hands, or more appropriately the feet, of the driver. This includes NASCAR’s top series all the way down to INEX Legends and Bandolero racing.

Unfortunately for these series, drivers and teams push the envelope as far as they can to be competitive and have found creative ways to install traction control on their race cars. Series like NASCAR have had the location of the ignition systems within the cars changed to help tech officials identify if a traction control device is present, but even that hasn’t stopped the advancement of traction control technology. Many devices are now controlled remotely using a wireless system, increasing the potential for these items to go undetected, no matter what a series attempts to do.

Michael Van Wingerden gets checked for traction control by INEX Executive Director Darrel Krentz.
INEX attempted recently to do something to combat the possibility of traction control in cars at the Summer Shootout.

As cars came off the track in round eight of the Shootout from their features, INEX officials pulled random cars into a separate area within the tech building where only the officials and the driver were allowed to enter. Once stopped, the driver was asked to step out of their car as their bodies were then checked using a metal-detecting wand to see if they had traction control devices on them.

“As we all know, traction control is the buzz and it has been the last couple of years,” said INEX Executive Director Darrell Krentz. “We have actually had a traction control unit at INEX. We have studied it and have learned about it, and we know there is a lot of technology out there. So we are trying to combat anyone even thinking about using traction control. We do not think anyone out there has it now; we certainly hope that nobody out there has it now. We are going to use that wand; it is basically a metal detector, driver fresh out of the car. We can check him. Anything he may have in his pockets or sewn into his suit will come up on that detector.”

Although the drivers are directed to the specific tech area bay as they drive off the track, it is possible they could throw a traction control device out of their car after the race and before they get to the tech area. However Krentz doesn’t feel that would be feasible and that someone would spot them throwing it out anyway.

“Certainly that would be something to consider, however they are very expensive. We know we have some wealthy racers out there but I don’t even know if they are ready to invest that kind of money to just throw it out the window. Also you know when they pull off here somebody is going to see them throw it out the window.”

Michael Van Wingerden was one of the drivers that were randomly selected to get the wand treatment. He welcomed the check and was thankful the officials are keeping things on the up and up.

“It is a good thing,” said Van Wingerden. “I think it is a good idea they brought that (the wand) out here. I hope they keep doing that and maybe we will get some of these guys out of here that have it.”

Kyle Beattie, who fields multiple cars for the Shootout as well as drives himself, was another driver that had to undergo the wand check. While he sees it as a step in the right direction, he isn’t so optimistic about this curbing the traction control issue.
Kyle Beattie. (LN Photo)

“I have heard of a few people that have tried it,” said Beattie. “Hard telling if they still have it or not, but I know of people that have tried it and tested it, so I know it is out there. I just think they should be checking these sealed motors a little more closely than worrying about this stuff, especially with the way they are checking. You are not going to find anything. If you pull into tech and you see someone there with a wand you are going to get rid of it. You aren’t going to get out and let yourself get checked anyway. It is about ridiculous. It is a good act, but you are not really going to catch anybody. If someone is going to use it then they are smart enough to use it without getting caught.”

Beattie went on to explain the technology is so far advanced, rumors of use within NASCAR and the legalization of traction control in Formula One racing shows that the problem might be too big for INEX and 600 Racing to control.

“There is so much technology out there today,” said Beattie. “There were rumors out there that guys were using flat black helmets and putting traction control inside of them. Dale Jr (NASCAR driver Dale Earnhardt, Jr.) had a flat black helmet for a while and Tony Stewart had a flat black helmet. There were rumors that they were putting traction control inside their helmets and they would have to paint them with flat black paint so the traction control rays could get out of there. I have a flat black helmet and I run it all the time. I just think it looks cool.

“If a guy wants to run it, it is going to be hard to find. The F1 (Formula One) guys couldn’t find it, I don’t know what makes 600 Racing think they can find it. It became legal in F1 because they were not smart enough to figure it out or find it.


“I would say 100% that there are guys running it at the Summer Shootout. Without a doubt. Whether or not they are guys that are winning races, it is hard to say. They might just be guys that were a 15th-place car and now they are a fifth-place car. You can really tell it in the rain. Everybody will be real close in the dry, but in the wet you will see the guys that normally don’t win races not even get sideways. That is when they should check for it because in the rain it is the most obvious.”

While the officials didn’t find anything during their checks Tuesday night, Krentz hopes that the drivers and teams understand they will not tolerate traction control within their realm.


“We just hope that the racers out there understand that we are taking a proactive approach to this traction control deal, not a reactive approach,” explained Krentz. “We are taking steps to let anyone know that is even thinking about doing it that we mean business, we aren’t going to put up with it and any driver caught with traction control will be asked to leave the series. We don’t want them back. It is very inappropriate, it is very much against the rules, it is very unsportsmanlike-like and completely and totally against the whole spirit of INEX racing.

“The best traction control was made by Mother Nature, and it is in the ability of the driver in the right foot.”

While Beattie isn’t too positive 600 Racing and INEX will curb the issue, he is thankful they are at least trying to address the issue at the Summer Shootout.

“It is more of a show than anything,” said Beattie. “It is showing people they are trying. They can poke around and that kind of stuff, but that is about all they can do. There are so many systems out there that it is hard to pinpoint. But at least they are trying.”

That's funny. Now if we could only get tire soak sniffing K9s at the track all of our problems would be solved.

The only beef I have with that is durability. If you mandate that kind of ignition, I would allow magnetos. Actually, I would allow magnetos anyhow as I doubt there is any performance advantage.

Mags are finicky too, don't get me wrong, but they are at least proven, and servicable. I would think a points ignition would be prone to a lot of trouble in a racing environment, or at least more than a plug and play MSD.

Gavin, All the factory stock guys run MSD HEI systems and don't have a problem. I ran MSD HEI in my factory stock with no problems, and this year in my mod had a MSD box go bad and it was only 2 years old. I know Buck Harsen and Todd M both have MSD HEI in there mods for years.

Magnetos use Points too.

see,,

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/pl/77,2737_V...ice-Manual.html

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/920,,_Vert...ment-Parts.html

Teh reason I say use a old 1960's point dist and not a Mag is that a mag is a lot bigger and more room to hide cheatter stuff. the old point dist is Small and easy to see into.

a good point dist will work well to over 7,000 rpm.

arnold.

Mod 4 is correcct.

MSD is late 1950's to early 1960's tech,,,it is analog.

thats why the fail all the time.

Hei is digital tech.

all the HEI's i do have racing modules that give multiple sparks under 3,000 rpm so that you do not load up the plugs.

Most people do not know that MSD does not have multiple sparks above 3,000 rpm, only at low engine speeds.

Most people use MSD cause that's waht they seen nascar use,,,but that is because for years nascar did not allow digital ignition systems,,,only analog systems,,,Digital beats analog every time.

That is the # 1 problem with a point dist. NO multiple sparks , so when the engine is idling COLD the plugs can load up and faul out.

See link on racing HEI's

http://www.performancedistributors.com/

Just for the record, I've had a couple people ask we close this thread but I think this started out ugly and has gotten imformative. I'm reading and learning... I hope the rest of you are as well!

IMCA is pretty strict on detecting traction control, you got it, your screwed. They have found it in the past, just by chance of pulling ignition boxes.

I had to dig the archives on Short track thunder for this.

We had a msd hei in our limited late model, when it got hot it quit running. When it cooled down it started again. Replaced ignition system and worked fine. Went into the pile of hei's that also has similar problems. Actally msd took that one back. Just my two cents.

Ray

I'd almost just say make it legal. That would shut everyone up, and I don't feel that I need it to win whether my competition uses it or not. I think it might make a difference in a 100 lap race, but I don't think in a 30 lap race it's going to do a whole lot.

If it's legal, the people who want it could probably find a cheaper system. I'm betting it's the stealthy systems catering to cheaters that cost the big bucks.

JMO

Mike

Joe,
I know the HEI is good, but that's not what Arnie is proposing. I'm more worried about having to cobble together some old school points distributor and ignition, that isn't made for racing and gets tore up by moisture and vibration.

I've never had a failure with an MSD box, the oldest one that we've had is over 12years old. We did have a wire get cut very close to the box, and sent it back to MSD for service, they rewired it for free, checked it out and shipped it back. I was impressed.

Arnie,
I also know that the MSD is not the most technologically advanced equipment. Neither is a magneto, like you said. I know AVSS went to magnetos (vertex style, not MSD promag) because they thought that the 50m car had TC. Turns out the car still dominated, but at least they removed the doubt of TC. If a points style ignition is mandated I would feel a lot more comfortable with a magneto.

I don't think there's any free space inside a mag to hide stuff, but I guess anything is possible. It is certainly bigger and heavier though.

Most people wouldn't know what traction control was even after it bit them in the ass! Lot's of "noises" come from race cars. Hell they make carburators with those retarders in them for traction management.........to my knowledge they aren't illegal anywhere. I don't use and never will use any kind of TC (besides my right foot) but at Berlin (and they sware they don't) there are guys who do....being that it's not in the rules one way or another whether you can use it or not. Also to MR. Conspiracy theory.........sometimes a cars timing can even be retarded to make the engine "sound funny"...BTW, thanks V for your reply!

Gavin, Whats the price difference between HEI MSD and a MAG? I'am pretty sure HEI MSD is around $275.

Gary, Who said the engine sounded funny. TC is still problem at local short tracks, and something should be done.

A mag is certainly more expensive, don't get me wrong. Also, HEI is NOT the type of ignition that Arnie is talking about. You can get TC for an HEI, its got an electronic module in it.

(I don't mind saying this cause anyone that knows my cars know they don't have TC)

Wait a minute...You sold that TOO!!?!?!?

Mike