Did anyone go to Spartan SLM meeting? I hear crates for 2009? I can't see too many crate Outlaw cars built when you could only race them competitively at one track?

There is a thread discussing such at http://www.spartanspeedway.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1204

That looks like a Sportsman thread

russrace, I did not attend the SLM meeting for Spartan but here is a post from the Spartan website (Aug. 14, 2007) -

This is being posted for Paul Zimmerman and Jim Leasure

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THE NEXT GENERATION OF RACING


PROBLEM:

Spartan Speedway has been experiencing car count issues for the last few years. There are likely several reasons, some of which include a weak Michigan economy, cost of fuel, change in social habits, competition from other venues, an inherent attrition rate that is not being replenished with a younger generation of drivers as well as other factors.

One certainty that we have to acknowledge is that what we are doing today will not work into the future. In fact it isn’t working now. Our Super division is often as low as 7 or 8 cars and there is no clear sign of improvement. If we continue what we are currently doing today the Super division simply will not survive as a weekly show, and this will not be acceptable to the spectators and fans.

Countless hours have been spent evaluating Spartan’s future and we have concluded that change is imminent. The change will be in two phases during 2008 and 2009, in order to lessen any impact on drivers/owners expense as well as the general public’s perception and acceptance.

The following information is intended to be an overview of what is planned and should not be interpreted as specific. This is simply an attempt to give all a “heads up” and we will narrow things down in the next few weeks. During the phase-in period there will be some variations within the rules in order to achieve as equal of a playing field as possible.


Super Late Models


Problem:

Car Count


Logic:

We are losing drivers for many reasons and very few new people are entering the SLM division.


Reasons:

Purse - The purse is not sufficient to sustain a Super let alone even get started in this division.

Attrition - We have looked at each driver lost and why, and have concluded that the drop out rate is much greater than the number joining.

Travel Cost - $3 plus per gallon has required people to reconsider how far they will travel weekly as well as how many nights per week they can race.

Competition - Several of our Spartan drivers are prominent Super Late drivers and going up against this field could be too intimidating for a young driver.

Friday Night - Racing on Fridays often requires people (driver and crew) to leave work early. With the uncertainty in today’s economy people are working when they can.



Possible Solutions:

Racing Late Models just has to be more affordable to attract new drivers/owners. The purses are not going to get bigger so we must cut the cost of owning and operating a Late Model in half.

There must be more parity within the division. The chance to place toward the front is what every team strives and works so hard for.

We shouldn’t structure our rules with the idea of attracting travelers; we should structure them to make the divisions easier to get into for the average competitor.

2008
Beginning in 2008, Spartan will begin the phase in of crate motors in the Late Model division.

In 2009, crate motors will be a requirement. Substantial weight breaks will be given for crates in 2008.

We are assuming “outlaw” bodies will be the choice for most but we are hoping some will choose template.

There are many details to sort through and we will work on those reasonably soon, keeping in mind the direction in which Spartan is heading while considering added expenses for our current Super Late drivers/owners.

Some of the open issues will be tires, shocks, weights, percentages, wet or dry sumps, cast or aluminum heads, just to name a few. Although 2008 may have some gray areas, 2009 will not.


Sportsman


In 2008, Sportsman will be required to run the Holly 4412 carburetor along with a spec. manifold (to be named).

For 2009 there will likely be some subtle changes made, as we are anticipating some driver movement into the Late Model division, as the cost of owning and operating a Sportsman or a Late Model become closer. However, today’s Sportsman will not qualify for a 2008 or newer Late Model.

The 2009 Sportsman will become Street Stocks as we attempt to lower the cost of fielding a Street Stock.


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Please keep in mind that this is only an outline and that we welcome comments and suggestions which should be sent to:


Spartan Speedway
959 Eden Rd.
Mason, MI 48854


or Email to: info@spartanspeedway.com

This information is endorsed by Paul Zimmerman and Jim Leasure.

Here is the post from the Spartan website (Oct. 6, 2007) -

Thanks to all that gave up some Saturday time to attend the Late Model meeting. We had one goal which was to identify ways to make it easier to get in or stay in the Late Model Division. Hopefully we were successful in our efforts but we obviously won't know for a year or two.

In 2008 the base weight will be 2800 lbs before feature.
You may deduct 50 lbs with a wet sump.
You may deduct 50 lbs. for cast iron heads.
If you choose to run the crate you may deduct 200 lbs.(part numbers will be listed and at this time I am not sure about the Ford).
We will stay with 60% LS.

We are hoping this will look attractive and make it easier and affordable to run Spartan. The logic here is to give some weight allowance for the motor that has less horse power and to make the field as equal as possible with out obsoleting any ones equipment or requiring them to buy a crate but at the same time making the crate motor a viable option.

Bodies may either conform to Alliance rules or use templates.

The tire rule will also change. The language needs to be worked on but basically a driver can only buy one tire per night plus the impound process and how you use your tires will be modified.

I would agree with you 100% on the outlaw bodied crate motor SLM, it is a bastard car that can only be competitive at one track. This type of car would have to have a big weight break to be competitive at other tracks. A lot of the current Spartan SLM run at Owosso, Angola, Auto City and Dixie for the specials. Now they either can't, because a crate engine at those tracks would get killed, or they have to have another car to do so.

I don't know if there is going to be a difference next year..

???????????????????????????????????????????????

I have been a supporter of this change for a couple years now. Lackey and I had discussions about this a number of times and as far back as a few years ago.

It's getting damn expensive to field these cars and the engine costs are now out of this world. When you consider the costs of an outlaw engine versus the payout, you would have to be nuts to build a Super these days. Obviously many feel this way as we are losing cars in this division at an alarming rate.

I was raised back when super engines were truly outlaw. The heydays were awesome and there was nothing better then a full field of awesome super's to get the fans blood pumping. But times have changed and we must change with them.

I support Jim and Bill with this move and I think that in time it will probably spread to other tracks. Remember the entire focus here is to preserve this sport and to keep as many racers as possible in the game. One way of doing this is to reduce costs for the racer.

Chris

Keith.. appears to me that there is a movement to redistribute the pure, sportsmen and SLM division into two divisions.. Late Models and Street Stocks.. and sportsmen cars are either going to have to step up to being a LM and running the crate or back off to running as a Street. Pures are going to have to upgrade to run as a street. I could be wrong.. which is why I redirected to that thread http://www.spartanspeedway.com/forum/viewt...asc&start=0 , because I don't run those classes and don't really understand the implications of the proposed rule changes.. I see that in the changes for 2008 they call it

"Beginning in 2008, Spartan will begin the phase in of crate motors in the Late Model division. " -- Not Super Late Model..

And then in the Sportsmen Division rules they state :

"In 2008, Sportsman will be required to run the Holly 4412 carburetor along with a spec. manifold (to be named).

For 2009 there will likely be some subtle changes made, as we are anticipating some driver movement into the Late Model division, as the cost of owning and operating a Sportsman or a Late Model become closer. However, today’s Sportsman will not qualify for a 2008 or newer Late Model.

The 2009 Sportsman will become Street Stocks as we attempt to lower the cost of fielding a Street Stock."

-- So taking that, that is why I said I didn't know if there was going to be a difference between where your reading Sportsmen/LM/SLM in regards to Spartan.

I did not attend the SLM meeting, but Jim did want me to share the following statement here with all the MSTRC'ers.

I would like people to know that after meeting with our Late Model drivers we have backed off a 2009 date to convert to Crates. As the meeting progressed it became apparent that Spartan was not quite prepared yet to make this change so the crate will not be mandated for 09 but may now look attractive to some. There is much about the crates that we do not know enough about yet. We have however modified our weight rules for 08 in an attempt to help some cars be more competitive with some of the stronger cars. We are not sure how competitive the crate will be with a 200 lb. weight break but I think we will have some indication as the 08 season progresses.

Thanks,

Jim

We run both UMP Dirt and SLM pavement cars. The biggest problem hampering asphalt SLM cars are promoters writing rule books to suit their own tracks and "protecting" what is left of their LM cars. The Alliance rules were a start but they don't address the main problem...tires. Today we have two versions of SLM's in the MI-IN-OH area's. One class are the 650+hp original SLM's that still run on the eastside and the westside cars for the most part are detuned 500-550hp cars to run on 9" tires. Another bad rule is the westside tracks seem to think sticking the remaining dry sump cars with 2800# as the cure all to equalize the wet/dry sump cars. On 9" low power tires it hardly matters, the dry sump cars already have a penalty called too much HP to the wheels. I think one dry sump car has won at Kazoo in the last 15 or so features.

The majority of these cars cannot compete with each other anymore. Fewer teams travel anymore. Last year we had 4 different types of Hoosiers to run four tracks. On the UMP side you load, grab a few Hoosiers and race anywhere in the country for the most part. That alone explains the demise of SLM's on pavement. As for crate Outlaws, you can stick a fork in the class if that happens. The crate motor deal is upside down on the dirt side, cheater parts are just a click away on eBay and few tech guys at the local level can spot the differences.

Having witnessed it on both sides, My conclusion is the UMP dirt promoters protect the UMP universal rules package to keep car counts higher because one UMP car as the same as another UMP car, the pavement promoters protect their own rules to keep what "homer" cars they have left. Problem is the "homer" cars are dwindling each season.

well said!!!!

Soo..in theory...if we can get the pavement tracks together and run the same package, then the car counts should start trending upwards, and granted the alliance was a great start, but it was just a start.. Now following the UMP's Model, we would need to get the pave tracks together, and basically start a sanction body to the late models so they would all fall under the same rules. The next question is..with UMP rules, it's more or less a national, while the Outlaw late models is are basically regional. If we could get the tracks on this, could we get enough teams to support it?

Part of the problem is getting teams to adhere to the rules. I tried enforcing the frame clearance rule this year (working as a tech official at Spartan) on the Supers one particular night. It's supposed to be 3 inches. I was met with resistance. One car was at about 2 1/4 inches. The driver said "Hey, they don't check it anywhere else in the state. I'm not going to raise it up and change my setup, I'll just load up and go home."

The 3 inch rule is an alliance rule.

I've come to the conclusion that the Super Late Models division is an "all out" class and the ground clearance rule should be eliminated.

However, is it becoming not so "all out", what with crate motors, added weight, and narrower tires?

For that reason, the 3 inch rule needs to be enforced which is another way to help even out the competition if everyone must run at a certain height.

-Maurice

You don't need a national alliance for Outlaw cars. You just need promoters to make a few decisions. If you have a track checking ground clearance and on the other hand begging for cars to show up then that is contradictory and driving cars away. Ground clearance and crank height rules for instance with todays BBSS setups is not a factor. We have LM's over here w/5-6" clearance at the nose until they come up to speed and the mega-rebound shocks hold the car 1/4" off the track. Technology floating out of Cup has put some of those local track rules into the dinosaur age.

It's pretty easy in my opinion, are we going to keep the class afloat with $25,000+ engines and big tire bills or keep it going with lower hp and cost effective tire bills. I would rather run our SLM on prem slicks and at higher speeds. So how do you get more cars and fans to support those cars in this MI economy? The Red Wings can't even give away tickets anymore.

There are several tracks that we run our outlaw cars at that say they cannot afford to pay the purse the outlaw cars need to keep coming back. So here is just an idea to see what everyone thinks. If we would use alliance rules (by this I mean the same quality Hoosier tires, same spoiler height, measure track width the same way, same everything) and enforce them (most tracks say they do not have time to tech each car like they need to because they only have a few minutes per car due to time restrictions, then open earlier for tech) we could have, just for instance, 6 tracks (spartan, springport, owosso, dixie, etc) that would run a 100 lap race every 7 weeks that paid good money to win and a decent start pay. The way things are right now (I am only speaking for myself) tracks are not going to get good car counts and quality drivers if they can only offer $850 to win and $200 to start. Tracks are not going to draw cars, like a Dean Hudson, if they run outlaws on 9" tires for very little money. I only base this on talking to a lot of other drivers at Dixie, Toledo, etc. The reason I bring this up is because it seems like at races, such as, the Gold Cup Races, Klash, anywhere they are running for $2500 to win or more, there always seems to be at least 40 plus good cars that show up.

As far as the cost of engines. We have an SB2 in one car and an 18 degree in the other car and we run the top 5 most of the time and we don't have $30,000 in both motors. The SB2 was built in NC and we only have $14,000 in it and about the same in the 18 degree. I guess my point is, if you shop around a little bit, you can get quality parts for cheap prices. The McGunegill sealed motor cost $16,000 new, and that is a 500 hp engine (I believe), so I don't really see how a sealed motor is that big of a savings, other than the fact that they require less maintenance. Now the crate motors, I realize are a lot cheaper, but by the time everyone starts having their ignition boxes tricked out, cams tricked, etc. I don't think it ends up being that cheap (yes, this does happen).

I am just trying to think of things to help the outlaw class stay strong as well as helping the local tracks profit from these events and not trying to start any arguments.

Tracks over here are averaging about $150-200 to start, Kazoo was at $1000 to win with specials $3500-$32,000. 9" tire rules in this area are open or 2 per night. Kazoo averaged 30 cars per night, M40 about 20. Berlin ran 1070 slicks/two per night and couldn't get 20 cars the last two months. They go back to 4 per night in 08 on 35/45's. Time will tell if enough SLM's left up there for full show. New Paris/Plymouth are 18-22 cars on 9" tires.

SB2's and even 18 deg motors are about history over here. 23 degree/500-575hp will get you up front at most tracks, Berlin might be the exception they run small cube 18's for the most part. The difference to the fan on Kazoo 9" 970 vs. 10" #35 prem slick is about 13.50-60's down to 12.90-13.10's sec per race lap at 35-40L. Kazoo decided it's not enough to warrant 4 premo tires and paying 50% more start pay. The track champ LM car had about 510hp w/358 wet sump I believe.

The argument continues...

One of the primary reasons Jim is pushing for crate motors in the SLM class at Spartan is to encourage newcomers to the division. It's not necessarily intended to encourage the existing crop of teams to switch over to crate motors, but to make it easier and less costly to get a newcomer started.

Whether the crate engine ends up being competitive with a 200 pound weight break or not, it will allow someone the opportunity to race in this class without spending a huge sum of money on an engine.

It might actually be quite competitive since Spartan requires good handling. The crate engined car at 200 pounds less weight should outcorner any of the higher horsepowered cars once the newcomer figures out how to set the car up.

Also, a 9 inch slick as opposed to a 10 inch slick will help even up the class as well. Once again, the lighter car will have the advantage in the corners. It will also be easier on the driver coming off the corners.

-Maurice

The only problem I see w/crates is it's too easy to cheat. The 9" tire rule has policed the HP derby pretty good over here w/o crates. The crates are supposed to be 6400rpm motors, you can build a pretty decent 6400 rpm motor with new/used parts combo and out motor a crate for less money. The tech line at a "well policed" crate show will turn off many.

I don't know for sure what Andy had in his SLM but I am sure that it was more than 510HP, as I know of at least one Kalamazoo Sportsman that has 629HP with a 383, verified by the dyno run just before it was installed in his car.

Not to mention, I am sure that Kenny Head has more than 510HP as his engine is built by the same person that built the sportsman motor.

RJ- Ask him. And ask him what they are building for 08. It's not 629hp by any means. Remember all the big power dry sump cars that fell on their face at Kazoo this year. Ask Ricky Sexton how his 620hp motor worked on those tires.

Kazoo/M40 and for that matter Berlin are not big hp tracks. Dyno's have knobs that can read anything you wish. We dynoed our dry sump 18 deg small cube motor and our 23 4" bore motor and I can tell you they are not 629hp. We used a $$$ Super Airflow dyno that reads anything from cfm to fuel flow numbers,etc. I know of 295", 331", 340" motors well under those hp numbers that have won the Klash or finished top 5 the last three years. Not too many 383's run by the top LM's. Check w/Baker, Irwin, or Olney on what they recommend for the 970 tires...you will be shocked.

Ok i'll bite, how so?

Maybe the engine builders eliminated from the ASA "approved" list or the guy's down south selling "ASA" sealed motors for $10K+ could give you a better answer than me? Those "unbreakable" GM sealed bolts are down to $400 on eBay?

The tech guys at the touring ASA level might not let one through but at the local level I think it's been a much different story particularly on the Dirt Late side.

There are some basics to increasing car counts.
The rules need to be few and simple and stay consistant.
The rules need to be area wide.
The rules need to be enforced with integrity at every track.
Once people know that the class is here to stay new cars will be built.
New cars leave used cars that people wishing to enter the class can aquire to "get their feet wet".
I think it is a misconception that a new SLM racer will build a new car and fit it with a crate motor.
I would expect a new entrant to buy a decent used car and grow from there.
SLM won't be SLM with rules that make them significantly slower.
Of course this is just my honest opinion.

I'am sure if you look really hard you"II be able to buy GM seal bolts at Ionia swap meet this weekend.

First of all, i think this is a very good idea for Spartan, i'm not saying it's the best but in the right direction. Finding ways to get more cars is what it's all about, especially in certain parts of Michigan right now. At this point, i think it is time to get off this "Alliance" deal or at least include it with new rules, and start moving to what new people would want... that's the video game syndrome. Keep the entry cost low to a "perceived" high end class of racing and i think you'll be amazed at what happens. Most new guys don't want to start out in a pony stock...although they should....my point being we need to get the cost difference down from class to class. We don't make a living at this and we should have to send 2 of them just to do it. Get the cars coming and work on the tech as much as you can....but do not let flagrant rules violations go just because "they do it elsewhere".

I've seen the same kinda thing in R/C Car racing... not many new guys getting in mainly because the little cars are way to fast in the "Stock" class, which is the slowest class you can race in....now how much sense does that make? I realize there is a lot to do and know in full size racing as i've been around it for a long time. Seems that it's more of a cost factor for lots of people now. Between lower pay at jobs or business and less sponsorship dollars, something has to give, even for the headline classes. The SLM has evolved over the course of 50 years of pretty much very good economic growth in Michigan and the nation...but times are different now.

I think there should be a protest procedure put in place as well for the crates. As for how to deal with an engine having to be tore down, well that's something we need to look at. I've always felt that having spec heads/disp. limit/carb/restrictor plate/max lift, etc. was a better method for "spec'ing" a class than to have sealing bolts. There are still logistic issues with getting replacements in time and/or finding money for another quickly on the crates. Obviously finding the cash to fix a regular SLM engine is difficult sometimes as well, but at least there are several sources that have them on the shelves within an hours drive of most racers....then they can fix them their selves if need be.

But otherwise, this may be what's needed to get a few cars back...at least one that i know of may be interested right now.

If you slowly make it so that the "lower cost" cars are on par with and then slightly better than the "alliance" cars, i think you'll see lots of guys getting crates to put in.

Also, i think shock rules are also a must. This seems to be an area where most guys think the high dollar stuff is what they need....let me tell you can do an awful lot with the cheaper shocks. $250 limit max....and don't raise it from there...ever! That leaves plenty of room from material costs.

As for brakes, i think i would take a poll of what every one is running now and put a break point in there. Don't under brake the cars, but use what the majority of guys are using now.

Tires, well you need to get 2 nights out of them at least...if not then 3 without them falling on their face. We all know they can't be rock hard, super soft or blister easily.

Speed is relative....and the crowds don't care as much about how fast they are going, but they do care about passing and close racing....but not so close you end up with half the field tore up every night.

first off I'm not sure how to save the SLM's other than a standard set of rules. what ever the hell that would be, I havent a clue. But I would like to comment on one of the previous replys on crates . The sealed Mcguinal crate in my mind is not the answer. Any engine can be sealed and called a crate engine. $16000 for 500 hp is is not a bargain. I consider the real crates to be the GM, Ford and dodge factoy sealed racing crates. And with all the info and history on them to be the easiest to monitor. besides in an SLM you would be able to use better shock and brake packages then for example the the current ASA/Superpro/USPRO cars. and with the weight break could make them very competitive at Spartan. I think it would be a good deal in my opinion. Also with Jim and Bills experience with them could prove to make it much easier to monitor. But I also feel that the crate drivers would be under constant scrutiny by the non crate competitors which could lead to some new problems. but I am for the idea of allowing them.
Dave

The CRA sealed motors are actually 600hp not 500hp. They are dominating many CRA/Southern events vs. $25K+ 9-1 motors. I think they held the top 5 positions at Winchesters recent 400.

If you stick a crate in your SLM you just made it a one track car. Kazoo just finalized a four race Klash Super Series with a $15K points fund. M40 is doing a similar program. Both tracks are running regular LM points championships also. Most of the racing in SW MI is on 970's to the dismay of many...but you have to admit the car counts are very high. Didn't Spartan have it's highest car count on 970's? The word was the racing wasn't very good? How can the racing not be very good judged after only one event vs. 10-12 cars on a regular night? There must be a way to rectify the problem or is it just the Spartan layout? Kazoo and M40 have had more passing the last two seasons than the last five on other tires.

My two cents

Maybe I misunderstood what crates spartan was pertaining to. I was thinking about a person wanting to run one track and I assumed this thread was was mainly pertaining to Spartan drivers. If any sealed crate is permitted then thats a whole nother deal.

The biggest change over here is the tire. If you put these cars on a 500hp tire than the 650-700hp $$ cars are out to lunch. The promoters are left to run SLM's a few times a year or run every night with lower tire cost/hp motors. I'd rather run slicks and big hp but if you only have a dozen quality cars left what route do you go? There will always be unlimited budget teams but the overall health of the tracks is the issue the Westside tracks are facing.

If you go to a 400hp crate the cars become track specific and resale of your used crate equipment becomes limited to a select market. The remaining crate LM's series can't draw 15 cars and the ASA teams are in the "freshen" monthly mode lately. If you are going to make everyone run 400hp motors than just run 10-1 355's w/650 gauge legal carb,GM# unported head, stock cranks, $200 claimer rods, and inexpensive pistons. We've had those motors hold up for years and for much less than a $6000 investment.

Monthly freshening?? Must be they thought they needed it to be competitive. That to me is pretty crazy, unless your ?? are unlimited. we ran ours for 2 years before we hurt it because of to many rpm's , our fault. It was a ford crate. steel crank, rods etc, I know many teams that ran their crates for 2 years before freshening . I'm afraid the supers are dieing and the less expensive engine will prevail. Everyone likes as much HP as they can stand , but I believe its about racing and close competiton then all out speed. I also believe that its more about the driver and crew and setup. Its tougher to pass and takes more skill and focus than having to rely on HP to get you to the front. Thats racing. Doing your homework to make a better car is much more fun and entertaining than out powering them. Its the waive of the future in the ranks of the weekend racer. Getting outspent is more frustrating then fun. As far as the tire goes the 970 would help do what you said to an extent . But a good setup within the limits of your car will still bring the cars with the HP to the top and prevail.

The main issue with the LM series that can't draw 15 cars is the cost of traveling for the local guy...hence why everyone races locally around the state. I think the intent with Spartan is to allow Autocity cars as well as those in the traveling LM series a place to race week to week.

I don't think there is a problem with selling used crate engines or parts from the crate engines. All the 23 degree heads that come on the crate engines are swappable with 95% of the hot rod small block chevys out there. Blocks/cranks/etc can be used in street stocks or modifieds. Not to mention that UMP is now sanctioning Dirt Latemodels with the 602 and 604 crates(which are huge down south). It doesn't seem that big of a jump to me. As for cars... the supers and ASALM/Superpro chassis are pretty much the same, so again, i don't see the issue. I know there are some things that work better on either car, but for starting out they are the same. I could see where some of the mod guys would jump up a class with this type of setup.

I do agree that specing other things...IE carb, engine size, etc. may be a better method to limit $$/HP. And even with that, you'll still have guys buying cup heads from the restrictor plate tracks that make more power or torque with the limited carb. But if the Crate engines create the feeling of more fair competition and gets more cars to the track, then so be it. We've run superpro enough that on a local level you still need the car to work before you can do much of anything with a crate engine.

I still go back to what spartan had a few years back, treaded tires and a small spoiler, then a small inexpensive motor can be competative, with a good driver and a good set-up. then you can have a common part, wet sump, 23 degree that can win. This combo would cost no more than a crate, and could be used for other things as well.

Open for honest comment. Do you think an outlaw bodied crate ( 604 chev, M 347 Ford) could be competitive with the 200# wieght break at Spartan? Good setup and driver being a given. Some one who wants to race at Spartan only.

My opinion is they will get beat coming out of the corners bad. I think bad enough that they couldn't make it up going in or through the truns. I think a crate with the 200 pound weight break would have a better chance at K-Zoo then Spartan.

That would be my opinion also. It would be frustrating to the driver and the car behind you. If you were able to build a motor for $7000 as stated in a previous post, you might pick up another 100 hp, but you would have to add the wieght back and I dont see the gain there. I think you would be hard pressed to build for less than 12k that would live for 2 seasons and be able to win (Spartan). Kzoo would be cool if they'd give the wieght break. I'm looking at my options with what I have though.

But then again, with less hp you can use more throttle sooner and carry it a lttle farther with more speed into the corner and turn well with less wieght. Heck I've got everything I need and the bodies cheap. Not much to lose but the race

I guess the only real way to find out would be go out there and race. I would be real interested in seeing how they do compare.

Then the guy should go home rules are rules

sHUTUP OR GO HOME HUH?.... Yea Keith, Wont know till ya try. Poor drivers gonna have his hands full. He'll have to be on his toes every lap . Spartans a lot of fun win or lose.

The 08 season will be my second year in a latemodel, but I believe that the best thing to ever happen to the latemodels is the 970 tire. I raced at kzoo last year and im going to this year also. All I had last year was a 500 hp 358 and I wasnt loosing anything on the straits, I was loosing it all in the turns. They also give a weight break for wet sump and cast iron heads and I think that also plays a key roll. I believe in the little latemodel expierence I have, its all in the turns, not in the engine. as long as we keep this 970 tire with this rule package, the latemodels will make a huge come back, as they allready are. no need for crate motors!!!

Walt Obrinske Jr
2006 SMS SS CHAMPION!!!

kalamazoo is another consideration I've made. With the tire rule and the weight break I wouldnt be afraid to take the Crate there. Jake really likes the track and the racing is great. The haul is a little long on a weekly basis from Eaton Rapids though. Hey maybe friday Spartan and Sat Kzoo!

Ya, its a bit of a drive, but its well worth it. The pay itself makes it worth it. They have good start pay as well as all the way through the field. not to mention the unbeatable insurance program. Im not taking anything away from any track that you may currently race at but k zoo and m40 have made there latemodel rules olmost exactly the same, and both tracks have awesome schedules that dont interupt each other , so it makes for a good friday and saturday combo. Im just saying all this because I went there and had the most fun in a single race season ive ever had. They dont nit pic you and try to run you off like some tracks do, and its clean racing at its best!!! (in my opinion)
kalamazoospeedway.com
m40speedway.com

actually , we're on a pretty tite budget right now and thats why are considering spartan . Its only 15 miles away and they also have good tire rule and a good weight break. Not lookin to set the world on fire but its been 2 yrs since we've raced out of the last 16 yrs. Missin it bad!