I see some sense came to Dixie speedway on the shock rule which states an $80 shock. Finally some common sense took over someone there.So all those expensive shocks can be put back where they belong,in the trash.
Now if only some more thinking were to happen al heads would open things up to the REST of the world to come visit Dixie.
This traction control stuff is another funny rule cause I do believe that the Gold Tracks and such are traction control and why are they allowed? That just drives up the cost for us all. I have never had one but this racing against them while they are advertised as traction control is not right. What if I had a slipper clutch set up between my trans and rear axle? Where I could set it tight or loose depending on how much traction control I need for a partictular track? What if I used magnetic control fluid in the slipper clutch? I could trade torque for heat but that is what a Gold Trac does isn't it? If it is mechanical not electronic is that the deciding factor? Only electronic magic boxes are traction control???? Only stuff not understood by racers is ilegal traction control.ADvertised traction control is allowed at all tracks it's just the magic box that is the problem. Make em lock em up or remove em I say. Cheaters.
I see in the new circle track mag that an engineer wrote in after helping a late model team and said this sport on our level runs on misconceptions,wives tales and other such non technically supported beliefs. He also said that so much crap flies for so long it is taken as racing fact. I said the exact same thing long ago and all I got as a response was "what are wives tales".
It is amazing that Dixie allows 2 tires and Spartan did but profits got involved and car counts will drop again.
The weight rule should be 2400 before the race and inspected before the race and not screwed with after the race.
Merry Christmas to all.


Oh by the way we are having a mod meeting at Eddie O'Flynns tonight at 8 pm. Myself and Mr Wallace will let you all know what we decide and if you cannot make it we will disqualify you all from being able to complain about anything as you were not at the meeting............

Wow Dick I sure hope Larry doesn't mind you dragging him into this crap. Also from what I have read there is usually about a weeks worth of notice for an important meeting, and at that you never go. So I guess it's you that excludes you.

$80 a shock. That almost takes everyone back to street stock shocks. Good luck everyone.


Have fun at your meeting.

After I feed him a long island he will agree with anything. I sent my registration in to Dixie today so there is my vote.
What good are Penske big buck shocks anyway? I raced against them and was not impressed so I give Dixie credit for doing what they have been saying for a while. Keep costs down for us.
The head deal is upside down still but there is time to work on that saturday nights all summer. That misconception thing that LJ refered to in the race mag is still in force at most tracks.
I will let you know what we decided after a few drinks and a vote. We have a few other wanna be racers coming so they will have a vote that affects your wallet,maybe the waitress will have a vote as she is a fan and wants to race when she grows up.
I have been to many meetings and not a SINGLE ONE was to decide. They all were to INFORM us what was decided for us......for our own good of course.
Where is the christmas spirit?

Dick, you are putting way too much faith in the diffy manufacturers bs advertising. It's just a differential...nothing more. I always have run a spool too, but a differential is not traction control. A differential doesn't stop you from spinning the tires. It just makes them spin more equally...I'd be fine if all the tracks have a rule about it, but they don't.

I think $80 on shocks is a little tight and here's why.

I bought QA1 steel rebuildable shocks for about $70/ea. I just looked and they have gone up to almost or more than $100(depending on your "connection").

The cheapest steel re-buildable that I could find with a web search was a PRO for $85. So it's Illegal now to, and so are mine even though I bought them new 4 years ago for under the $80 rule.

I bought those shocks to save money. Instead of buying a dozen different shocks, I bought 4 shocks and a tuning kit.

How many shocks do most guys have? I own 5 total.

If I break one, It's $20 or less to fix it.

I like the idea of the rule, I just think it's too tight and it's going to cost them some visitors. I'm not going to buy four shocks to do it, and I was hoping to take the car there a few times in '08.

I wouldn't be complaining if I hadn't bought a budget shock in the first place. I've always been against all the high dollar crap.

Mike

I really doubt that this rule is going to be monitored as closely as you think. The only way that this rule is going to really be enforced hard is if the racers start claiming each others shocks. I think if you go through tech with a $120 QA1 they are not going to kick you out. And I doubt that the racers will start claiming shocks unless they see someone with a really expensive set on their car. I would not have any reservations about running the shock you are talking about, Mike.

Sportsman and Factory Stocks in this area have had a $50 shock claim for years and I have never once seen anyone use it, even though in the Sportsman I bet 90% of the shocks cost at least $75 a piece from what I have seen.

The WB Pro shocks I use are $55-$60 bucks each. This claim rule will keep guys from running the high dollar shocks.

Dick said:

"Where is the christmas spirit?"

Good point.

Merry Christmas all!

By the way, I run the (now about $65) Pro shocks also. Also some of the TA's.

have a good day,

schinde

To me Shocks are like tools in my toolbox. They are a valuable tuning tool for a specific problem or circumstance. I've said before the the most you will see me spend on shocks is $100 - $150. I used to run the rebuildable Bilsteins, Now it's Pro TA and a few Carrera/QA1. The way I see it is simple. I'll spend $400 - $600 on a helmet for my noggin, all the right shoes and gloves and belts. Go to all the effort to make my car as safe and as fast as possible. Then I'm going to cheap out on shocks. Is there really a difference, YES there is. My Bilsteins instantly smoothed up the car through the center. The comparison was $130 Bilsteins to $50 Pro's. I'm all about keeping some cash in my pocket but $80, that's a bit tight. Mike brought up a very good point about older shocks that are now a victim of inflation. Racer cost then was probably right in the ballpark but now it's not. Shoot I just bought some new Pro TA's to fill my inventory and they are illegal. Personally I like USA's rule. You get can get a lot of good shock for the money and the performance step isn't worth spending that much.

Well there is my rant for the day. How did the meeting go Dick? Did you guy's figure anything out. I'd pay more attention if you feeding me few rum and cokes. lol Alright all Have a Merry Christmas!

Shinde, PM me and let me know how your feeling..


Perry

I think you could have re-written that rule to include the cheaper rebuildable shocks. For example, no schrader valves, no monotube, no penske.

Penske shocks are actually outdated technology compared to even the $120 bilsteins. Total ripoff in my opinion.

The shocks that Mike has are MSRP $92, and should be legal in my opinion. If you want to save money you can revalve/repair them yourself, instead of spending money for 6-8 shocks to do any tuning.

Personally I don't see what the big deal is, just because someone else wants to spend money on shocks that don't help them any doesn't mean that I need to. Who cares if they spend more money?

What I find funny is guys will throw a bunch of money at some expensive shocks thinkin that they will save the day! I've always been a proponent that you have to have EVERYTHING right before shocks even come into play and then you can use shocks for those little tweaks. But, I see a good point for inexpensive rebuildable shocks. I think that $80 is a little low for shocks unless of course they want you to run a WB shock or equivelent. I know guys that have there cars as good as they can get em and they have those plastic totes of shocks that they take to the track....now that I'm sure is expensive, having multiple sets of shocks! I'm thankful though that this doesn't affect me!

I couldn't find the actual rule so I could read it, so at this point it is still unclear to me.

The way Dick worded it, I gathered that it was meant as $80 retail price. The way others are wording it, it sounds like it might be an $80 shock claim.

So which is it....$80 claim- or $80 purchase price? Big difference...

Mike

It's both actually. I guess it may save new people money but when the rule last year was a $200 shock limit it doesn't really help anyone that has shocks over $80 which there were multiple cars with. As far as I know there isn't a rebuildable shock available for that little so you have to buy multiple shocks if you want to tune with them any. I don't know about the whole shock claim idea, that's sort of like claiming part of someones setup, granted it's only a small part of it, but it's taking part of what someone put hard work into finding the combination of.

That clarifies it. It's BAD if they try to enforce it, and someone needs to get on the phone right now and try and straighten it out.

I don't believe in having rules that are not enforced either...Those are the rules that go un-enforced until a visitor comes in and wins a race.

They need to make a list of shocks that are legal...And the Budget take-aparts need to be on the list. Or else simply clarify it the way HRT187 stated.

No one in the whole State is going to buy 4 shocks to visit Dixie... Especially guys who bought take-aparts to save money.

If I even thought Kern knew who I was, I would call him myself.

Mike

Mike, who cares if Kern knows who you are....if you are going to frequent his track than that would matter to him maybe. I'm sure if a bunch of mod guys bitched, the rule might change.

Probably was only going to take the car there once or twice...

It's easier for me at this point to plan around track rules and not try to change them. I guess it isn't that Kern doesn't know me, but rather it's just not my place to be calling and trying to change his rules.

It's a very well intended rule, it just needs to be expanded slightly to make room for a few more sensible and economical shock options. That is why I was hoping that someone more involved with Dixie could suggest these changes.


Mike

Will this rule apply to the other MCAR tracks of Auto City, Owosso and Whittemore?

mod88, MCAR is no more!! Whittimore, A/C, and Dixe are doing there own thing. After Dixe move to saturdays it kinda fell apart. As of right now all the rules are about the same. So I guy could race at any four of those tracks.

mod4, thanks. That's kinda what I figured happened but wasn't sure.

MY GOODNESS SOME OF YOU ARE NEVER HAPPY ARE YOU?

why dont the tracks go back to imca. ohhhh i forgot the guys with a lot of money in there cars dont like it so justbitching about things

The new manager from Owosso came to our meeting the other night and he asked about econo mods and I told him I would rather burn my stuff to the ground than race junk again,claim or not.
Going back to timing a chain kit used as steering quickeners does not thrill me at all. Maybe carrying 9 inch pigs and a selection of transmissions to get the gear you needed is all we need. Who is complaining of spending money and having a nice piece of equipment? Just because 1000 dollar shocks is too much for most of us does not mean we want to race junk either.
Everyone asks what we can do to improve car counts and then suggest changing the rules to try to get some magical,mystical new racer to suddenly get into racing out of the blue with out a thought to asking us actual racers what we think.
What I think is we racers need to meet and vote line item style by putting your name under a rule you support. We can mail this to the tracks as our democratic American way of doing things. If 100 people vote on every item with their name and phone number that may do some good.
Each track has it's protective click rules and probably stick to them anyway but we would know what the racers voted for and support.
Simple,enfroceable rules we voted on,what copuld be a better bargianing chip?
Anyone????

You can run any steel shock you want in IMCA. (and coilover rears)

Well,

Lets see here.

1. Hard Tire
2. No fully tubed frames
3. No dry sump systems
4. No soaking
5. No engine claim
6. All tracks follow Leasure's lead at Spartan about "rough" driving
7. No traction control, (don't go down the differential route either, I'm speaking of electronic)

That would be a start for me.

Matthew J. Schindewolf

Otherwise known as "schinde"

have a good day,

schinde

I see that my $59 Bulsteins are now $89 so they will be out if the shock rules hold at Dixie. After all that anouncement bull on how they(MCAR) were out for the racers and will stick together as promotors and if you are kicked out of one track u r kicked out of all their tracks and all that crap the deal falls apart like cheap shitpaper. They had no qualms about banding together to control us in all ways but we have so many crybabies who will not stand up and be counted as a group who could make our rules ourselves that we are nothing.
The tracks do not really want to make our rules that is why IMCA is so big. One less worry for a track if there are standard rules for a class. Ever since the promotors have been in charge of rules we cannot even get a full field of cars and now they point to us as promotors,racers,self policers and as the ones who pay the prize money.
Too bad MMA was so lame about rules and tech and were available for problem solving it could have been a good deal but they made more than all the racers together and did not do what they paid themselves so well for.
We will see how competition for cars works with everyone racing Saturday night. I wil go where they pay the most,period.

Stop saving me money. I now have to have 12-16 shocks at $75.00 each and can no longed use my 4 adj. shocks at $150.00 each. $900.00 min. for the spect shocks,$600.00 for adj. shocks. I all ready had the adj. shocks,you just saved me -$900.00.[ we all know you do'nt buy 4 shocks for ANY track!]

You are saving me to the poor house.

Ok, Let's see where we're at with this...

A well intended rule meant to save racers money- A good thing.

Was this rule discussed with the racers, or was it just announced?

What I see is a need to revise this rule and make it effective in accomplishing it's intended goal without costing racers money.

What I don't know is who is going to try and do something about it? Who is going to call Kern or pull him aside and say "Hey, I like what you're trying to do here,but..."

Mike

P.S. 53speeder- I wouldn't expect any revision of the rule to allow your adjustable shocks... That is a performance feature that is just not in line with the "intent" of this rule. Not that I don't agree with your reasons for running them...

Mike

Mike is a clever guy and he may see the need to change the rule,my economy shocks are priced out as it stands. That is a little too cheap I agree but adjustables with schrader valves are not needed.
Send him an Email and say what ya think. Most people are silent if they like the rules or not. Get rid of all traction control and have reasonable shocks would be good moves to limit costs. A spool is fine if you can drive and set up properly. You should not need a mechanical device to help you maintain traction like these expensive,high maintance differentials.Get your stagger right and save money. The NO in no traction control of any type needs enforced. Say what you like but it helps control slipping of rubber to facilitate traction.....Right????
I hear whinning about high costs but when there is an oppertunity to say money some want the more expensive stuff anyway. It is no advantage if we all have it. That just means we all wasted a grand or more to keep up with the joneses.Same with shocks and ignition boxes. A grand for the best ignition box but mags outlawed by that folklore Lj mentioned in C-T letter. They should be mandatory not ilegal.

I'm not sure or not that I agree on everyone running spools. I've always run one just because that's what I had, but I'm seeing that the guys who are running the differentials are experiencing better tire life. And if you can't get the stagger you want, you wouldn't need to buy a tire to get it right. So I think a differential can kinda pay for itself over time.

Mike

Dick,

I don't really know where you got this notion that a diff. was traction control but you are wrong. Traction control only helps when under power, like putting it to the floor. A diff. works for mid turn handling, which I figured that if anyone you would want all those back marker flash in the pan rookies to have as much available grip at the apex as possible. If a diff. is traction control then so is a ball bearing throttle pedal, dropping the gear to drop RPM, Rubber biscuit or Sprung third links, 3 - link suspension, 4 - link suspension, shall I go on. What you are describing is anything that inhibits the tires from slipping. Well sir that could be a lot of things. Traction control is single handedly controlling the slippage through the use of the brakes or ignition. So I guess under your heading I shouldn't be able to trail ride the brake pedal to keep the rear in tow. So let's all unhook our rear brakes in an effort to ensure that none of us do that. Get your terminology straight before you start blowing the whistle. Quit falling for the advertising and look it up. Maybe spend less time reading us the ad and more time looking at what a product really does. For the record, on one season I ran both a spool and locker. My times never changed, it was two years ago. You can look up the times if you want. I broke the rear about 1/2 way through the season, when I put it back together I upgraded. So I guess I was achieving maximum grip elsewhere. There are a lot of other things to be noticed on a racetrack other than a diff.. Cars that don't spin the tires, no matter what surface they are on, could be a give away. Also if you've ever driven with a diff. you'd know that it will still roast the tires coming out of the corner. Where is the traction control there.


Perry

I guess you think I am some type of idiot by the way you talk to me. Traction control can take many forms and the rules say no form allowed. Your misconceptions are something else. If I thought like that I would never be able to fix anything cause misinformation will not lead me to the correct diagnosis.
You are off base on the diff completely,you should read the advertising that say DRIVE IN DEEPER cause one wheel is not dragging causing your car to try to turn sideways cause your cone shaped tires do not match the straight approach INTO the corner so one tire has to drag or the inside tire has to hop while trying to turn as many revolutions as the outside tire. One way or the other one tire has to slip or lose traction or both give up some. That means your outside tire has to drag along slightly or the inside tire tries to turn but since it cannot usually turn smoothly it will hop slightly or a combo of both is what I would suspect unless one wheel has more(excessive) traction because of poor set up or maybe weight transfere. Either way it will hurt your times slightly and heat up and wear your tires faster. Not having to slip one or hop the other going into the corner is more stable cause you have equal traction if one tire is allowed unlock slightly to maintain TRACTION.It is helpful if both tires have max traction when picking up the throttle when they lock under acceleration. You still have to get the stagger right when on the throttle off the corner.
They free up one wheel(adjustable,light,medium,tight,)decelerating and LOCK both up under power. Having way too much stagger will heat and wear your thrust/friction surfaces in the diff. That is why the oil has to be good stuff and changed often.
I would prefrer a Detroit locker as they do not shear the lube and do not cause heat. You are slipping the end of the helical gears across the housing end plates causing heat instead of heating your tire that is slipping. It is a trade off that is expensive and unnecessary in economy racing. If we all had the cheap spool we would all still be equal. You couldn't have an advantage by spending money. What a concept.
I have a gold trac right here in my office so I am not a stranger to them. I dissected it to see what caused the heat and burnt fluid cause noone seemed to know the actual facts.
I diagnose problems many times every day and have to pay for my mistakes myself so I get my facts from reliable places and study mechanical things daily.
If you would help solve problems instead of trying to impress everyone with your wives tales it would be a great help. That is why racing is such a mess is misinformation spread around so much people actuall believe what they say......

Your preaching to the choir....

I was not preaching to anyone. You were explaining to me how I do not understand differentials and how they work. I was looking foward to some new facts or something to open my eyes.
I am willing to learn.

A differential is not traction control. If it was, you would be able to stand on 800hp from the apex all the way to the end of the straightaway.

All a differential does is attempt to make both rear tires grip equally...but they still spin and they still lose traction.

Mike

This is why racing sucks now days. You are controlling traction,no one said if it is just one wheel control its ok.
No devices of any kind. It does not say no electronic devices does it? Some people just want to argue and split hairs.

I'm not against spools or even having a rule about them.

But you are in the minority when considering it a "traction control" device. I think that's all we're trying to point out.

Mike

Well then you all just type in traction control differentials in your address bar and see just what pops up. Read their explanation of what traction control is and what the diff can do for your traction to help control it. I would say I am in the majority by thinking about what they say. I suppose you all are smarter than Eaton Corp and all those people who make traction control differentials.
If uneducated,non engineer types would stay out of the rules making business we would not have these problems. Every rule sheet I have ever seen is just a copy of someone elses rule sheet with their own misconceptions added and passed along. Clear intelligently written rules are what we really need and no gray areas big enough to hide the state of Texas in.
So a trans with mechanical traction control to the drive wheels is legal? Adjusting a magnetic fuid transmission with a vacuum control is ok? A vacuum chamber could measure torque and engine load and mechanically adjust the engine speed by stiffening up the fluid would be ok?
A slipper clutch on a dragster is traction control with no electronics. A decreased vacuum signal with a sudden increase means no traction cause as they wheels spin and the engine speed increases vacuum rises and that could be used to avoid more slippage but not actually control traction?
The ultimate traction control is a small motor. How about oil control cam timing? As vacuum rises it could retart the cam and kill power and wheel spin. This is on or going to be on every engine soon for the street.
Anyone familair with Honda's system? Cvvt cam control? How bout that. How bout running a plug wire thru the firewall and when your tires spin ground the wire out till it stops spinning.
There are many forms of traction control and they are ALL ilegal and the rule says so. Even if they did not know other systems existed they still made it a rule to kill off racers with imagination.
Cheating the spirit of the rule is still cheating......
go to how things work.com and type in differentials,traction control and learn something new today for free...
Going to see the Transiberian Orchestra tonight so it will give you some reading time..........

Everything you just mentioned is a traction control device.

All of those items control power going to the rear wheels in one way or another.

A differential simply balances power that is already AT the rear wheels. It is a traction "balancing" device.... It connot control power going to the rear wheels.

The manufacturers want to call it traction control so that you will go and buy it. Would you spend $600 on a rear end power-balancer?

We can call them whatever we want, but the fact is that the "no traction control" rules were written with the intent of preventing devices that actively control torque to the rear wheels...not devices that allow the rear tires to rotate at different speeds.

The rule to eliminate differentials would be something like "All cars must have locked rear end. No differentials of any type."
I've seen the rule in print like that before. That's how they do it when they don't want guys like us arguing over what a differential is.

Mike

Man, you guys must love when ya have to race each other!!!!! J/k! Mike and Dick

22. GAUGES / ELECTRONICS: No electronic monitoring computer devices capable of storing or transmitting information. Exception: Analog tach. No adjustable ignition control boxes. One (1) 12/16 volt ignition box allowed, with rev chip, must be out of reach of driver. No additional ignition accessories allowed. No magnetos. No traction control devices.


This may be a stretch but this is under the 2008 USA rules. Yes it says no traction control devices, but it says it under (drum roll please) Gauges / Electronics. If were to outlaw all traction control devices we might as well be playing Xbox with a controller, because I'm pretty good at throttle control and that means I'm not spinning the tires. Better cut off my leg. Ya know come to think of it. All of our rules are for the most part "must be OEM" Well a Posi trac unit is "OEM" Look at those hot rods out there with Traction control out of the 60's. Dick I know you're not an idiot. None of us are, or these discussions wouldn't get so heated. But don't act like we don't know what we're talking about either. I'm pretty sure we don't all go, "hey look shiny new part that supposed to drop 5 tenths, I should buy it" We all read it, kick the tires and what not. We're all right. But like Mike said. Calling it traction control is the minority.

Everything we do to a race car is to control traction. This inclueds srings,shocks,suspention mounts,and location of most every thing in the rear.

If taken to the max a smaller engine is tracction control,it dos'nt spin the tires as much.

Thank You, the exact point I've been trying to make.

I was beginning to think Iwas going to have to cut my leg off.

Perry,

Please do not hurt your leg.

I'd think the spirit of Smokey is in us all, in one way or another.

have a good day,

schinde

So I see Dick you want racing more affordable, but only if it pertains to what you have not already purchased. NICE! I guess were all in it for ourselves, but I don't claim my ideas to be for the betterment of our sport, only my team! (you should too.) I think econo mods are an awsome idea. You guys are bordering on super mods. 20k for a winner at least.

Make sure it's the right one,so you have more left side wt.

OOOPS,How you going to push the gas pedal?

There you go! Good point. I think of traction control as any type of device that takes throttle control away from the driver. You can mash it with no consequence.

Stinkfist, You're an ass. I have never wanted anything cause I have it. How can you spout off with such crap? Can you read better than you spell? I said I have one right here in my office. I repeat, I have one right here in my office. That means, I have one. It is right here. In my office. Simple enough for you?
Kbm17, I don't race with most of these guys cause they don't RACE. They talk,and talk,and talk.
I really resent having some think I am out for myself. I guess they don't know me or have a clue. maybe that is a little insight as to how they are.
If puttin on the show depended on these guys we would have a long wait until midseason and then they would show up and flop around in the back then breakdown and bring out the yellow and we would wait while the track crew cleaned up their mess and go racing again. Then they would be on here saying how fast they were and how racing depends on them.
In the meantime I would be headed to another track,,,,to race...

As always Dick you are Eloquent. (do you know what that means Dick?) If they had an abnoxious redneck award you would win it every year.

Can the personal attacks... all of you.

Dick- Have you ever considered forming your own travelling Series? You could go from track to track all by yourself and put on a one man show that would amaze even the most elite shorttrack fans all across the nation. They would be like..."wow, I've never seen such amazing car control." They would pay big bucks to see you race yourself so perfectly.

Put some good parts on your car though...I've seen you "break down" before...I'd hate to see you go out and flop.

Mike

And the ruler hits the hand.......child says sorry boss.