I'm guessing here correct me if I'm wrong

Dixie

Mods 18
Lates 19
Sports 13
FS 7
LS 21

What were AC, Owosso, and Spartan.......Just wondering (I can't spell curios....courious...)

Crystal had 121... 38 of them Mods but only 23 Late Models. The weather had a lot to do with the lower car count.

ac had a great feild of cars..in all there classes...im just guessing

acss 15

fs 15


ls 21

hornets 12 to 15



i dont remember how many thunder trucks they had....but they had great features

Angola had 17 mods,about 10 supers,12 or so ss and a dozen pure or 4 cylinders or whatever they call em. Pretty sad everywhere I would think.

Dick, How did you do at Angola?

Spartan had 10 or 11 supers, including a template body that was leading the race at 20 or so laps, and a crate engine outlaw body car too!

Do you know who the temp body car was and the outlaw crate?

Gonzo,

I think the outlaw crate is Jeff Brunt, from Indiana?

have a good day,

schinde

Mod4 , I won a heat race and was doing good when my brake rotor and hub exploded and my tire went down the backstretch ahead of me. I got from 10th to 6th and I caused the only caution but some behind me crashed avoiding my parts and each other. I had an iron head motor. It was fun but I am going to Whittimore this weekend. I am only going where I can race what I have and take it with me....plus whoever pays the most first of all even if I have to drive and waste gas.

It really sucks to only be able to race at certain tracks but they made it that way.

The driver that lead the race in a template body, crate engine car was James Johnson, from Wyoming, MI.#15

DRY YOUR EYES SPEEDY NOTHIN IS WORTH CRYIN ABOUT. WHERE DID YOU RACE?

Kalamazoo Speedway had 31 late model, 16 mods, 14 sportsman, and 15 pure stocks.
There should be over 50 late models and a good pure stock car count this saturday as its $5,000 to win for the late models Kalamazoo Klash Super Series and $1,000 to win for the pure stocks Klash Bash. Gates open at 1 practice at 3. Pure stocks 40 laps late models 100 laps. No mods, Sportsman or Cyber stocks.

Hickory has been drawing around 25 late models 20 LLMs and 12-15 Street Stocks, 1 less Street Stock ME!! I blew up 2 weeks ago and am scrambleing to get another one together, Its a fun track to race on the crowds have been So So around 1000-1500

WOW only 1000-1500 people there to. I guess the econamy has been hit every place if they are only getting that many people. Kalamazoo crowds have been hurting to even with kids 12 and under free. I remember the days I would got to Kalamazoo and it would be packed every nite about 5000 to 6000 people but when people can't hardly pay to live they can't afford to make it to the track. I've been down to watch a few times at Hickory It looks like a little flatter and tighter corners than Kalamazoo but would be a fun place to race a outlaw late model. More of the southern tracks need to get outlaw cars. I think it would help draw crowds seeing the wicked fast cars on the tracks and they are a little cheaper to build than the template cars. What kind of times they turning down there? Its been so long since I watched I can't remember but it was fairly good racing.

Dayracing said " I think it would help draw crowds seeing the wicked fast cars on the tracks"

I have watche Outlaw cars and template cars on the same trackes, and don't really notice a difference in the speeds. I would be interested to see a ccmparison of lap times between outlaw and template (crate or other) at the same tracks. Be that Superpro, ASALM or USPRO. Didn't Superpro run at spartan or springport in conjuction with an outlaw race a year or two ago? That would give lap times from the same day even.

The only difference I may have noticed is the quickness off the corners being a bit more impressive for the outlaw.

I woudl guess that weight has the most to do with it.

I have noticed that they factory stocks on all the paved tracks at least on the east side of the state are really down this year anybody know a reason why

Well I can tell you the problem with Hickory FS, They keep changing the rules This year started off with Crate Motors getting a 500 carb compared to the 350 on the Built motor, The built motors are stock factory crank, rods, pistons 72cc heads 194-150 valves, 450 lift hyd. cam AND the 350 carb, the 602 crate has the edge, also they added a 200# penalty to leaf spring cars, they have since changed that to 100# these rules have killed the car count, IMHO they need to: run crates and built both with 500 carbs, im fine with the 100# rule, A crate Monte Carlo has won the first 4 races and a crate Camaro the other 2 they just kill us off the corner, Since I blew up last week Im tempted to buy a crate but Im afraid they will change the rule on the carbs then ill be screwed so for now im building another Stock "Built" motor, The Late Model Stocks are in the 15.00 to 15.70 range, The Pass Late Models run in the high 14s we run in the low 17s

Thanks for the info. Were the PASS late model the outlaw or the template? They run the outlaw bodied one in the New England area as a touring series. Not sure how much different they are than the outlaws around Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio. At Kalamazoo we are running low 13's some make it into the high 12's in the outlaw late model. We are on the 970 treaded tire. The track record in a outlaw bodied late model is 12.009 on slicks. Randy Sweet has the world record at 10.746 in the sweet machine. Billboard and all that stuff like one of the winged outlaw dirt late model. The template cars run around Kalamazoo in the 14's. CRA late models but they have a 9:1 rule. The Nascar Elite series were in the 14's when they were there a few years ago just a little slower than our limited late when they still had limiteds at the track. Hope to see more outlaw races down south so I might be able to go racing in the winter. Winter in Michigan starts about September haha. Thanks again for the info

Dirt cars are still going strong

I think it is because you don't need a college degree to read the rule book for dirt cars. Keep it simple, keeps em coming. jmo

IMHO

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FS have way outpriced themselves........Why move up from LS/Bomber to a class that cost 3 times as much (on tires alone) and only pays $20 more to start. A nice used Mod cost about the same as a nice used FS ( I have an example before everyone attacks that statement, Kyle Hayden wants $4500 for his FS/Sportsman.....Bill Szecsodi was selling his Mods for $5000 ea. or both for $9000 Both cars have won championships and multiple top fives at AC and Dixie) I don't think Mods are cheaper at all.....Parts are certainly more expensive. But if someone wanted to move up, this would make more sense.

The class just isn't getting any new blood.....Guys move up or move on and no one is taking their place

By jobe I think you've got it!

Cam,

You also got to put into consideration that most of the OLD existing Factory Stocks are moving up to the half mile to run as Sportsman which are dwindling the existing FS fields, down even further. We all said it a few years ago that the future of the FS is going to be on the 1/2 mile, and here we are today facing that very statement. There is more money to be won up on the half mile, with very little changes (gear/cam).

You're getting $400.00 to win the Sportsman feature, while it's $75.00 to start. I believe the Factory Stock division is $300.00 and $50.00

I know there are REASONS why people race on the 1/4 mile in the Factory Stock division, because people just like racing on the 1/4 mile more, as some like racing on the 1/2 mile more... it's just a personal deal for those whom are not worried about the money, the fact of the matter is, the future of Factory Stock racing (especially at Dixie) is on the 4/10 mile.

JMO.

I agree 100%........But the Sportsman class won't stay "FS on the half mile" long. Back halfed cars turn into limiteds in a flash. I know a couple of leaf cars have had limited success on the big track, but a coil spring car seams to be the way to go.

I didn't know my car was for sale for $4500!!! lol. Actually it will have a for sale sign back on it next time I race.

I agree that the future for these cars is on the half mile. It is no longer an entry level division. If you want to race on the quarter mile there are 4 cyl. and bombers.

Besides the half mile is way more fun anyway.

I would like to see the FS/Sportsman on a much harder tire that lasts more than 3 nights, but I don't know what Hoosier makes that is similar to the 970 but harder. We need something to equalize the horsepower. The motors in competitve FS are very costly and way out of hand.

I only changed the cam and the gear to race the half-mile. Oh, and then I took that same gear/cam combo and set fast time on the quarter mile. lol.

for the money I've got into my sportsman, I wish I would have just bought a LLM and spent some time learning behind the pack. I didn't do that because it was too big of a jump from enduro cars. Sportsman is designed to be a long term home for people who don't want to step up to a mod or PLM. I agree with Captain Cam about FS being priced too high. the only way to bring the cost down might be to mandate a certain gear ratio at each track to limit RPM's. In the mid 90's at whittemore we ran a 2.73 R&P with a heavy converter in a 350 turbo and turned 6200-6300. now you have to turn 6800 to 7500 to compete and those parts cost more. I don't expect to ever see this rule enforced in a FS class, but these types of rules and limits should remain in the LS.

I agree that the factory stocks as we know them are probably going to disapear. Their car counts aren't too good right now. I just built a new factory stock but have already decided to switch to sportsman (I havent even raced the new car yet and i'm already changing it to something else) I prefer the big track anyways, i had way more fun the one time on the big track then i ever had on the 1/4 mile. i'll run it as a f/s a couple times while i'm waiting for parts to put the good motor together than i'm switching to sportsman.

Tim, are you going to run Sportsman at Dixie or AC?

Kyle, i'll probably run both tracks. i've only raced at auto city in the past but just about everybody i know who races runs dixie and not A.C. so it gets kinda lonely at auto city (<that would be sad violin music playing because everyone abandoned me at ac and went to dixie.lol) I want to try out that big track at dixie and get to hang out with some of those hack and wack team members that I know, but I don't want to quit auto city completely, i've been going there too long.

Talking about cost of building /running a race car. These are some REAL facts about a Template/Crate Motor car.

2003
I built my first Pro Late Model/Superpro car,
1992 Port city chassis, 1999 updated front clip (converted Joe Bush's Berlin track champion outlaw car) with a brand new GM crate motor for $19,000. Competed with this car for 2 1/2 years, ran in the top 10 in Superpro, and sold it for $17,500.
2006
I built a BRAND NEW Port City BB/SS with all the best parts money can buy within reason, brand new GM crate motor for $28,000, consistant top 5 car at Auto City. A year later motor rebuilt by Katech ($3000), Still a consistant top 5 car. This year I fixed a rearend oil leak and fuel pump gasket leak (NO ENGINE REBUILD), put new tires on and been running in the top 3 at Auto City.

When someone is considering racing or moving up to a different class, you have to ask yourself
1. How long do I plan on racing?
2. How many days/time can I afford to race?
3. Do I sell my OLD stuff and start over?
4. What will it cost in the end to upgrade my equipment to run different classes?
5. What will the resale value be on my investment?

You can run very well at Auto City spending about $300 an event.(pit passes, fuel, tires, food, etc)

Or you have traveling option with this type of car, ASA late models, Superpro, Uspro, etc.

Template/Crate Motor cars are being run all over the United States.

Nice, informative post.

arnold.

""the only way to bring the cost down might be to mandate a certain gear ratio at each track to limit RPM's. ""

this means you have to buy new gears.

then you have to tech the trans ratios and gear ratios,,, you can get many trans ratios for 3rd or second gear that will bypass a gear rule.

This means more TIME and work to tech a car.

sooo,,,,What really works and is Cheap, and EASY to tech is Very restrictive exahaust system rules such as the Flat Rock street stocks have.

NO class other than the top division such as Mods or LM's should be allowed to have headers and big exh. pipes.

Mandate Stock CAST Iron exhaust manifolds and very small diameter exhaust pipes for all support divisons, and the engines will quit makeing power above 6,000 RPM.

I went to Whittemore's opener this year. The Lead Sled sounded like a bunch of grannys going for groceries instead of race cars. I think the fans want to see and hear their moneys' worth at the track. I remember when you could run a 400 against 350's and it was believed that the 500cfm carb would negate the advantage of the bigger cubes. It didn't. I just heard another story of Brezinski Stock cast iron manifolds. I guess when it comes down to it if people want to spend to buy lap time, you're not gonna stop them.

This year at Auto City, every pro late model/super stock car had the carburater removed and teched, then bolted back on and SEALED to the intake. The track mandated max rpm of 6300 for all makes of motors (just the same as ASA/Superpro/Uspro), msd boxes were sealed with a chip block and a new 6300 clip after a 3000 chip validation of the box.

A step in the right direction. All the drivers and owners are very happy with the step up in the teching this year at Auto City.

I will agree with Terry on the teching. The one thing that Terry did not mention is the different guys that have won races over the last two years. We were track champions last year and only won one race. People are having fun in our class and you don't need to spend alot of money. I have a 99 Howe we bought for $16,500 turn key 6 years ago and we ran the same motor for 4 yrs with one rebuild and we won two championships with it. If anyone is interested, I have a turn key car with trailer and lot's of extras for $14,900 and it has a fresh motor.


Greg

Bresinski manifolds only really help when used with Large diameter pipes. If you mandate very small diameter pipes, they loose much of thier advantage.

headers make more power and raise the RPM power range because they

1) Reduce exhaust back pressure

2) reduce exhaust reversion back into the combustion camber durring the valve overlap period.

3.) can actually "pull" more intake charge into the combustion camber at high RPMs. ( scavaging effect)

If you have a support division that already uses headers,,then At a mimimum, to reduce horse power, and rpms and cut costs, mandate very small diameter exhaust pipes, such as 1 1/2 inches maximum.

headers with 1 1/2 inch exhaust pipes will .....

1.) Increase exhaust back pressure at higher RPM's.

2.) Increase exhaust reversion back into the combustion camber durring the valve overlap period.

3.) kill the scavaging effect at higher RPM's.

this would Reduce peak RPM's, reduce power, reduce engine costs and increase engine life.

and you would still have that race engine sound.

Arnold

You have tossed this idea around a few times Arnold, I think its a great idea. I remember the first year that I started racing street stocks, guys had come with 434ci motors and where just tearing it up. the next year they changed from a four barrel quadrajet to a holley two barrel, man did that even out the playing field.

Racing becomes affordable when rules are created and enforced. Dwindling car counts are directly perpotionate to rising cost to compete in any class. Tracks let guys get away with expensive items so they dont lose cars. Every track in this area is guilty. Technical officials are not allowed to do the job they are paid to do. This is the bane of being a promoter. You have to overrule your techs so you dont lose a car and then the cometitors are all pissed. Never ending. Im glad I'm not on that side of the fence.

They may sound like that but when the class is SUPPOSED to be an affordable class to run, and compete, thats what it should be. Not to open a can of worms but a good rule for the sleds/bombers would be switching to a Hoosier race tire. Maybe something like the old comanchee. By time you by a street tire, and have them shaved(if you do) your looking around $85. A racing tire is a little bit more, same playing field, track can make money off of selling them. Win Win for everyone in my eyes. Whats everyone else's opinion??

My only question on that is how long do the racing tires last? The radials are lasting quite a while. Maybe if you came up with a hard compound and teched with a durometer. You know make a rule and stick to it. I like the thought of a cheap tire thats for sure. I also think it is cheaper to use racing springs otherwise you go to the junk yard buy 10 springs pay to get them rated and your still lucky if you have what you need. You can spend 45 bucks a corner and be done with it. Maybe 1 or 2 extras for different tracks, but still ultimatly you will spend less.

We were told directly by one of the competitors up there they were running Brezinki heads intake and monifolds. How bout that. Thats at least 5k worth of lead sled upper end.

Nobody has any brezinski stuff on their sled at Whittemore. You could buy any of the whole sleds for 5 grand I am quite confident. They did have the exhaust rules opened up at the invite and one guy took advantage of intake and carb rule openings. He stuck in a vortec motor and he lost to a car that could get on the gas 1/4 way through the turns with old style heads and a quadrajet. Whittemore is a huge momentum track, if you get a 25 foot head start on a drag race with anyone it is no contest.

keep the rumors in check on the sled class up there. They have been cracked down on real hard this year. One guy moved up to factories last week and one other is considering it very hard. The start pay is the same as winning a feature at most places so they are doing the math and making the jump if they are competitive. Im glad to see it.

The guy up there that is consitantly the fastest had a short block he bought for a really reasonable amount from an old dirt guy in west branch. It is a flat top motor with good quality parts, I wont give away what he paid, but he bought it really, really, really right. He has the right heads for the decent flow for the class, but nothing exotic in any way. I know this cause he is married to my ex wife. She would shoot him if he spent anything on that car.

Im lucky I made it out of the marriage with no gun shot wounds on me.

Jeff it was the invite, but that is what we were told by the driver so he has it. Weather or not he runs it I dunno.