Why did the announcer keep asking guy's if the outlaw super class is done or basically dying when they had 29 cars show up at their track,seems that 2 tracks running on the same night,1 with supers and 1 with sprints,kinda seems like they are both not trying to promote anything,just trying to kill each other,my god 29 supers show up and you keep talking about support the supers and they are dying29 cars!I don't think the outlaw supers are dying just that 2 tracks will not work together to promote racing!that is all!

Results from last night anyone?

dm3man i think people ask why super lates are dying is because back in the day 29 cars would show up every week for a regular show. them good old days are gone for sure. a big paying show would draw close to 50 cars. now to see that kind of car count you have to watch dirt late models, 50 plus at merrit thursday night for big money.
i agree with you on the dixie auto city thing i will not go to either track this year just because the games

1- mike root from grand rapids area, 2-steve sauve, 3- scott hantz. mike luberda lead the first 65 laps or so and pulled off looked like from overheating. root was running second and lead the rest of the way. one comment i want to make about the race is, scott hantz who was clearly the fastest car on the track was trying to get around a lapped car while running third and got into him. they sent him to the rear with about 15-20 laps to go and he came back to finish third. he commented after the race that the lapped cars were told at the drivers meeting to move up high for the leaders and the car he got into didnt move. it was too bad because he easily could have won the race.

Yea the 50 car cost hantz the win,especially after mike's engine overheated,looked like mike had them covered,it's too bad that lapped cars can't get out of the way,after a leader passes you you'd think that it's time to get out of the way since you have NO chance to win but can affect others chance to win?Also larry zent wrecked hard in his #5 with the 94 and zent looked like he had a concussion or something like it as he was helped out and looked wobbly on his feet,hope he is alright,overall it was a good race

Don, there was hundreds of boats on the river and bay yesterday. most of them cost as much or more than a good slm, and gas and refreshment do add up. there was no payout or promoting of the event, yet the turnout was great.........you will see the same thing at car shows and campgrounds also.

i guess my point is racers are a dying breed. the investment of time and money is huge, we all know that. in most cases these days, the cost far out weighs the rewards for the racers and thier families. in all reallity, it makes sence to not be involved in racing, and it is real easy to see that once the racing blinders slip off a racers head..............there are a lot of other things to do then go racing.
i hope some day in this area it turns around. maybe some thursday, or friday nite racing would help this area out.

Curt what does your boating with friends have to do with an announcer continually asking drivers if the outlaw supers are dying when nowadays 29 cars is a good showing,yes i agree racing is expensive and payouts don't justify racing,but also some people make choices to not race on saturdays citing family but?,it's all a choice, but when a track announcer and owner bring up a question like they did with 29 cars there to race on a night when there is a track within 15 minutes running sprint cars and they bring up that question only cause it looked terrible in the stands,till the feature began it was bleak,it makes no sense at all for what these 2 tracks are doing as with this economy they are just hurting each other,Sure in the old days there would be 40 cars but i did not live in the old days i guess,and dirt racing is a very different breed than pavement,maybe i'm the only one in the stands that took exception to them talking about it dying on the microphone and telling us to support this type of racing,i took it as or else,It is not our fault or the race teams fault if either of these tracks has a bad crowd or regular car counts are not where they would like as there are only so many racers and way to many tracks on the same night.

the reason they are/were said to be dying is they have been basically turned into a traveling show.............you must remember when they ran every night don't you? i guess most of my responce was towords all local racing in general. you can't say people do not have the money to race at that leval, once you get a way from the race track you can see people all over make major investments in ways to spend their time entertaining themselfs.

I remember Runnin Tri-city in the late 90's on Fridays. They had SLM and LLM as well as sportsmans and purestocks. Kurt, you still have that tape I let ya watch that racer72 recorded? You held off the one and only "Juice" for your 1st feature. All im sayin here is Tri-city had slm and llm in the same nights.

.........i have been meaning to get that back to ya, lol. btw, it was a "Mini Juice"....... Brent...... you remember everything about the first one!

Lol, I thought it was Gary, there cars looked about the same. I always loved the way that front stretch made them motors talk.

I'm still amazed Dixie hasn't been sued by the Dixie corporation for calling it's series the "dixie cup"

Although I do agree with you on the promoting thing. I do also agree Super late model Outlaws are a dying breed. How can you say they are not dying? All the cars you saw at Dixie are most of the cars in the state. Sure there are Supers that run Berlin and Kalamazoo we don't see much of but we never have seen them in this area. The cars that were at Dixe came from Canada to indiana, Ohio, Area. I bet you could count 40-50 Supers in the Tri City area alone 15 years ago probably more. Now we are one of the only States as far as I know to even run Outlaw Super late models. I love this class more than any other racing anywhere and wish it was what it use to be. But reality is The announcer is right, we need to support them because that was almost all of them! I loved it when "locals" owned supers the way they own modifieds and factory stocks now. Running against Super Drivers that owned the corner gas station or a local mech, shop days are long gone! This is really a whole other class than it use to be. They use to run 4 nights a week in this area alone and all tracks had them. I think the guys that are running now will run for some time, so I dont think it will die tommorow but I bet in 5 -8 years you will not see them anymore. Sad but True. As for you Kurt your losing your racing mind lol. I dont know whether to say congrats or to say thats to bad lol. As for me I still have my racing blinders on. Maybe when I am 50 I will do other things in the Summer.

Ray

I have to agree with d3man. 29 outlaw superlates is a great turn out, actually 29 of any style late models is a great field of cars anymore.

The owner/promoters are cutting their own throats for a few extra dollars at the expense of the racer. Then when they run off the racers from their track, they wonder what happend to all the racer's and cars....then you hear the statements "the outlaw supers are a dying breed" because we only have 15 show up now and five years ago we had 30.. I guess it is easier for the owners/promoters to claim that the outlaw supers are dying as opposed to admitting they have killed them off.

In addition, it seems that it is popular to make the statement "the outlaw supers are dying" by the very people who are advocating and trying to advance the crate engine/template body late model thing....they have their own agenda! Actually, the crate engine late models don't really seem to be setting the world on fire either with their car counts. I actually see less crates around locally and traveling as compared to the oulaw supers. Basically, I think it has more to do with the economy, gas prices and discretionary income of racers and fans!

I agree the actual number of outlaw supers that are around today are nowhere near the numbers of the past, but there are still many in the tri-state area, which for one reason or another are not competing or competing less.

The bottom line is the promoters need to promote a good product to the fans and in my mind that is not happening at most tracks, as evidenced by their dismal attendance in the stands. Some tracks have the right combination and some have no clue. Obviously, when only 200-300 show up in the grandstands the owners/promoters want to start slashing costs and usually the largest expenditure of the track will take the hit (late models?).

Bill

I agree the actual number of outlaw supers that are around today are nowhere near the numbers of the past, but there are still many in the tri-state area, which for one reason or another are not competing or competing less.

Bill
[/quote]


Bill,

I also agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing I am trying to say is that we use to have hundreds of super late models and we now have very few. I am not arguing why... There is a a whole lot of reasons and opinions! Fact is, We use to race against mostly locals, and by locals I mean from Clio to west branch you could count at least a hundred supers. Now we have very few and they are getting less and less. Hence the term "dying" I am certainly not disagreeing with any of the reasons, but the fact is they are dying. I have been around Super Late models for 32 years and they are "dying" From hundreds... whatever we have today they are slowly going away. And don't misunderstand me, I love the supers. I would rather go see a good super race than any other race. I see alot of our old locals still racing but in everything from a factory stock to a mod. Look at guys like Buck Harsen, hayden, laburda senior, mg moll, chuck silva, karl edmonds, scott lamp, don riley, ryan ostrander, bill higgins, gary jezewski... I could go on and on, most of those guys I listed still race but not supers. Why not supers? Like I said, I know there are alot of reasons but the fact is those type of guys made up hundreds of supers where today they are all gone. Heck if you look at alot of who is left you will find that most of the guys are guys who have won championships at one time or another and have found pretty good rides. That is all that is left are good rides with high $$ behind them with a few exceptions. I guess the supers of today are a different than the supers of yesterday and they have turned to a traveling series like sprints... With that said I STILL love the class and it is even funner to WATCH now. Not so much fun to be a low dollar team though lol.

Ray

Ray

I DIDN'T KNOW MY FRIENDS WOULD TAKE OVER MY POST CONSIDERING CURT THINKS HE IS THE MAN,RAY THINKS ROD IS THE MAN,AND I THINK I'M THE MAN!

Oh you mean you were not talking to me?

And just for the record I am the man!

Ray

don, you should start your threads with "friends please do not reply" condition.

Don, why were you there if you werent racing? I agree, you are the MAN but the MAN needs to be in the car damnit.

LUC,Darn that sounds familiar?Work is slow and bills come before bringing out toys if i had a wife/girlfriend paying for home stuff or a sponsor i'd be there,neither right now means no racing.ohh and curt you can post just that you can call too,we ALL know how you feel about dixies move to saturdays,,ray you ARE the man!

After thinking even more and risking babbling on and on about the subject, I would say this. Yes the Supers of old are gone but for what it is now it is doing quite well. Outlaw Supers as we know them are now a traveling series ran from northeastern Mi to northern ohio,Indiana area. Getting 29 cars for these events is awesome. Watching local Supers at any track on a regular night is "dead and gone" not "dying". But this new class is doing well.

Ray

Good job RAY,hey dale didn't you retire from gm with full pension while watching this post?

Yes Don, I did do that, but I still can't afford a super.

Supers aren't died off they just have changed. The eastside cars are still 700+hp dry sump and the westside cars south of GR are 500hp wet sump, the Berlin cars remain dry sump but it doesnt take 700hp to run Marne. It's hard to travel with an asphalt Super these days with different tires at every other track and hp requirements all over the board.

Next weeks Klash #3 pays $7500 to win, last month is was $5500, in August it's $10,000. M40 pays $10,000 on Jul 5. Makes little sense for these guys to travel, spend over a grand on race gas, slick tires, tow costs, and still be 200hp short when they take the track.

I have to agree with Ray. The East side used to be littered with supers. Doering and Jane used to get 29 cars on a regular Saturday night. Poor Paul was also bringing in large numbers of supers. Most East side tracks were running consi's. I can remember John Grega taking my super down to Columbus for the end of the year Main Event race. When we pulled in I couldn't believe my eyes. I believe there were over 75 supers there, and few were back markers. Butch Miller, St. Amant, Freddy, Joe Shear, and on and on.

What killed Supers was cost versus purse structure. The promoters could no longer afford to pay the supers big purses and the drivers could no longer afford to race weekly based on the promoters purse structure. While costs escalated for the racers ( and promoters ) purse money never adjusted upward. Just a couple years ago promoters actually cut the starting pay and win money for supers. That was the final straw I believe and that was when you seen racers get out of supers by the dozens.

What also helped seal their fate were rules that allowed tons of money to be poured into the chassis and engines. While Howe and Port City did a good job on holding the line on chassis prices, racers went out and spent HUGE bucks on bolt ons. Penske shocks, carbon fiber parts, lightened components, 700 hp SB2's, etc. It all added up. The cost of knocking a corner off your super doubled in the event of a crash. When Lee Anderson crashed at Toledo a couple years ago he told me it cost them over $ 50 K because the impact also destroyed the engine. How many racers do you know who can afford to throw away $ 50 K and then spend another $ 50 K replacing what you just lost just to keep racing ?

I just hated to see the decline of Supers. Some may think I crammed crate engine supers down the throats of racers with the introduction of USPRO & SuperPro but in reality supers were already dying off at that point. I was doing what I could to keep these guys in racing and also allow new faces to enter the sport on a cheaper basis. I love the outlaw supers, always have and they will remain one of my favorite divisions. But unless its a big money show, it isn't worth it to the racer to build a super and load it to go racing. Promoters also can no longer afford to pay racers what they need to run them.

There is nothing in racing that can match seeing and hearing 22 supers with 700 hp engines come through # 4 turn for the green flag. It will get your heart pumping and put a smile on your face. Personally, nothing will ever replace the excitement and adrenalin rush of outlaw Super racing for me.

Chris

exactly

Don't forget the tire issue. This also helped kill the class. In the old days you would see several brands at a track. Now you have to have a special set of tires for each track. This has help prevent the cars from travelling to another track on their off night or a rainout night at their home track. The bottom line is that they have just priced themselves out of business just like the supermodifieds did back in the sixties. The next class that I see this happening to are the modifieds. As rules open up, the cost also goes up. People need to look back on history and learn from it. Just my opinion.
Thanks Marty Blume