This should be interesting if anyone from Dixie shows up! The high horse power LLM motors vs the underpowered crate motors should be very interesting. This should have many good drivers with thier rules: Superpro/ Dixie Prolates/ACSS



Greg

here we go again high hp motors with 4412 carbs ok! from what i have seen this year the crates are not equal either

Lets see if Tech will check the cars/carbs....its very easy to enforce the outlaw motor/9" tire rule, but you actually have to take the hoods off to check 2 barrel vs 4 barrel....I think im going to be a spectator

what is the skinny on this race? what tires are they running? is it b.y.o.t.?

Outlaw/2 barrel and Template/2 barrel cars will run on 8"rims, the 970 Hoosiers

Template/Sealed Crates on the 10", 3035 left and 3045 right Hoosiers, No rev chips required.

All rules are what you are running at your track, Dixie or Auto City.

ANY QUESTIONS CALL THE TRACK @ 1-810-686-9500

THIS IS AN INVITATIONAL RACE.......................

How about the Superpro cars or the ASA cars? What will they run for tires?

you wont get any cars that will run the 970's against your tires. at dixie the plms run around same or about a 1 tenth or 2 slower than the mods. from what i hear the fast mods run in the low 16's at ac and the acss run what, mid 15's? i would think if it was a true invite, every one would be on the same tire.

[quote name='KCT-11' date='Jul 4 2008, 08:26 AM' post='129803']
you wont get any cars that will run the 970's against your tires. at dixie the plms run around same or about a 1 tenth or 2 slower than the mods. from what i hear the fast mods run in the low 16's at ac and the acss run what, mid 15's? i would think if it was a true invite, every one would be on the same tire.
[/quot

How do the cars at Dixie compare? How many times does a true Crate car win over a LLM? Does one inch really make that much of a diff. on tires between the 970s and the 35-45s.? Why should a 410hp crate run with the same tire as a 470 hp LLM?



Greg

The purpose for the invite is to see what the TRUE differences are between the 2 types of cars (Crate motor & 2 barrel) and not cost you a set of rims. The Dixie pro late models are not running this night , so what do you have to lose? It was 2005 the last time a 2 barrel car raced at A/C. I hope we can get a good turn out.

well then shouldnt you run the same tires dont you guys run slicks if so that dont seem fair

So you think it should be fair by having everyone run the same tires? OK, what should we do about the horsepower of the LLM(470 hp) compared to the Crates (410-430 hp) I would like to hear a answer. Auto City is stepping up to find a happy medium so maybe they can give Prolates another place to run without buying new rims and tires.
When did a crate template car last win a race at Dixie. What is the win %? Somebody please come up with some facts showing that LLMs and Crates are equal and there wouldn't be a problem running the same tire.


Greg

i dont go to dixie when was the last time did acratemotor car at dixie ran slicks id take the slicks you get more grip with the slicks well see who wins the race at autocity i bet its a crate motor with slicks just like some guys say a outlaw body has an aero advantage over a template body yea if we was running talladega

But you are still dancing around the issue of the difference in horsepower. What should we do about it?

Greg

Do what any series that allows a variety of engine combinations to run, try to balance the difference with weight. Different combinations have different breaks and penalties. Check out CRA rules (craracing.net) or ASA Midwest rules (asamidwesttour.com). You'll notice in both rules it says in more than one place things along the line of "series officials may add or subtract weight to ensure fair competition". So it may take more than one race to get the balance right to help keep the playing field level.

[quote name='Greg' date='Jul 3 2008, 07:38 PM' post='129811']
[quote name='KCT-11' date='Jul 4 2008, 08:26 AM' post='129803']
you wont get any cars that will run the 970's against your tires. at dixie the plms run around same or about a 1 tenth or 2 slower than the mods. from what i hear the fast mods run in the low 16's at ac and the acss run what, mid 15's? i would think if it was a true invite, every one would be on the same tire.
[/quot

How do the cars at Dixie compare? How many times does a true Crate car win over a LLM? Does one inch really make that much of a diff. on tires between the 970s and the 35-45s.? Why should a 410hp crate run with the same tire as a 470 hp LLM?


You guys are in dream land if you think everybody is running 470 hp LLM. The crate with 4barrel is very competive, Ive seen Wilcox, Robby Johnson, Sam Coulter, Lonnie Saumier all run well and win races at Dixie. Robby Johnson is the only one i have noticed run this year with the night change,but he always runs well. As far as tires running 970s would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Dixie has weight breaks for Template cars but not for a crate motor. You can run a Template car with any approved motor package. The Crate gets a break from the Outlaw bodies but not the LLM Template. I still ask the question: Can anyone tell me when has a true Template Crate last won at Dixie and I,m not talking about winning because of wrecks? We need to find a true happy medium.


Greg

you wont get any cars that will run the 970's against your tires. at dixie the plms run around same or about a 1 tenth or 2 slower than the mods. from what i hear the fast mods run in the low 16's at ac and the acss run what, mid 15's? i would think if it was a true invite, every one would be on the same tire.
[/quot

How do the cars at Dixie compare? How many times does a true Crate car win over a LLM? Does one inch really make that much of a diff. on tires between the 970s and the 35-45s.? Why should a 410hp crate run with the same tire as a 470 hp LLM?


You guys are in dream land if you think everybody is running 470 hp LLM. The crate with 4barrel is very competive, Ive seen Wilcox, Robby Johnson, Sam Coulter, Lonnie Saumier all run well and win races at Dixie. Robby Johnson is the only one i have noticed run this year with the night change,but he always runs well. As far as tires running 970s would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.



There is a reason those guys no longer run at Dixie! What do you think it is?



Greg

[quote name='edas73' date='Jul 4 2008, 10:41 AM' post='129839']



You guys are in dream land if you think everybody is running 470 hp LLM. The crate with 4barrel is very competive, Ive seen Wilcox, Robby Johnson, Sam Coulter, Lonnie Saumier all run well and win races at Dixie. Robby Johnson is the only one i have noticed run this year with the night change,but he always runs well. As far as tires running 970s would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
tell em ed

maybe you should ask joe he seems to have all the answers yea right

Again, this is for one invitational race. If the 2 barrel guys want a place to run on July 19, Auto City is making it happen for a very little amount of money. So bring your car, run your best and maybe this will be an option for 2009 racing season? Let see first hand what the true differences are between the 2 types of cars at Auto City. This has been run for 3 years at Dixie only, A/C is more of a set up track with the tighter turns.

This really is not a true test. The tire thing is not right, but like you say its a start. HP needs tires to work. Put a built motor on slices and its no race, the built motor will kill the crate motor. This is the only thing thats keeps it close at Dixie is the type of tire. The tire limits the amount of hp you can use. Theres always Whittimore on sat also. Where they run 970s on both motors. But it is nice to see the track making options for everyone to race. Good job and good luck to the built motors.
Mike Bilacic

I would have to agree that you will not get cars if their not the same tire, There is a major differenc from the 8" to the 10" tire. I personally think the way Dixie and Whittemore do it keeps them real close. Also the cars that already run A/C on a regular basis have their setups figured out and would be no different for them compared to cars that have not ran A/C in three years.Totally a huge disadvantage for people from other tracks.We'll be spectating also.

theres also owosso on sat the only problem with autocity you cant run a outlaw body theres still alot of guys with outlaw bodies atleast mike had enough sense to not go to cratemoter template bodies like joe dimwitt

[size="5"]All cars run on the 10" tire outlaw body bigmotor cars run a 6000 chip and the other crate motor cars run anychip they want.[/size]

Hope this ends up as a postive thing. Where as next season you could have three Mid Michigan Tracks that you could use a Outlaw LLM.

Hey yall, why not run Owosso and get rid of all this controversy. Under new ownership ya know!

If they don't all run on the same tire it WILL NOT BE A GOOD COMPARISON,add weight to the outlaw 600 hp 2bbl engines and leave the 285 hp 4bbl crate engine cars alone.To run it with the outlaws on the 970 and the crates getting the 10 inch slick is just like someone posted earlier,it's like going to a gun fight with a knife just to see how you can do against them but knowing you will be at a disadvantage.Add 150 lbs to the outlaw but put all cars on the 10 inch slick but run them a couple times this year so try to offset the tire bill a little!OR Ask 1 outlaw and 1 crate car that runs good to practice and make adjustments on a practice night,supply free pit passes that night,maybe round up used slicks and work to get them close before asking guy's to haul out to the track to just get beat by crate motors with slicks!

I don't even have a car to bring to this race. After racing there once this year in my Sportsman car, I know that I never did figure out turn one. I kept backing up my braking point. If you over drive that corner just a little, you're screwed. I don't know many that would run well there on their first visit. It reminds me of learning to drive Tri City's big track. Drivers that call that track Home will have a huge advantage even if you were in IROC cars. I get the point that A/C is giving guys a chance to try the track. I think it would really torque off the guys running crates that have been loyal to A/C to permit outlaw cars and motors. Rule changes made to bring in more cars usually upsets your regulars.

The guys at Auto City don't have a problem running against anyone as long as it is equal. Everyone on this topic has ideas on how to do it. Our idea is 9 inch and 10 inch tires but, nobody likes that idea. Other people want more weight. Look people, there is a offer on the table with a place to start! Nobody ever said it had to stay that way. We can always adjust at all four tracks. We have to start somewhere and that offer is to run your track rules to start with.


Greg

If one track runs 10" slicks and three run 970's, then the obvious answer is get on the same tire and adjust with weight.

maybe if crates were on were on 10" wheels w/ 970's as part of the adjustment so that they don't have to invest in another set of wheels.

Crete cars at Dixie run about a second faster on 10" slicks,but a harder compound (45 and 56) verses the built motors on 970s. Were one of the few that run a crate/template at Dixie. I must say its close,but with no weight break for a template/built motor car, (I think)they have a slight advantage with both cars on 970s.

The whole purpose of this is to try something new...no one has anything to lose. Auto city is not giving out points that night, and dixie is not running anyway....we *(ACSS) do not want to buy 970 tires, and dixie plm do not want to buy 3035 3045 for one night....

I am willing to bet right now that a outlaw car on a 9" tire will win this race...im predicting Ken O'Conner *(if he joins this race) will win this race, or maybe chris sterns if he brings his car. The built motor is still an advantage over the crate motor...but Auto City is willing to invite these cars *(that have been complaining about not having the opportunity to run at Auto City for the last 3 years now) and now everyone wants to bash it?

My suggestion IF WE DID go to a common tire would be 3035/3045 10" Slicks, but the outlaw motors have to weigh 3000lbs.

Another hot debate, should we not be able to use our mirrors and radios because dixie does not allow them??

Anyway we will see I guess...

You seem to forget, if you run the 970s you have, you wear out that set, so it costs you a set of tires. I forgot about the mirror and radio thing, you guys are still racing from the stands and behind . Thats one reason we do not run there. But its nice to see your trying something, good job on thought. I talked to a lot of guys last night, Hope you get some takers. Keep it up, if your talking about it, something good will come out of it.

QUOTE (racer72 @ Jul 5 2008, 07:58 AM)
maybe if crates were on were on 10" wheels w/ 970's as part of the adjustment so that they don't have to invest in another set of wheels.

I was refering to next season, not this invite. Sorry for the confusion.

We've got the slicks ready. I'd say if you want close racing give crate/template cars a weight break and keep all cars on same tire,Thats the only way you will have close racing. Ran our car with both tires and the slicks made a ungodly difference to the 970s. Either way with same tire and weight breaks is probably the only way you will get other cars to show up. Sounds to me that alot want to try it but not if it's 970s verses slicks,Makes no sense. Those that think it would be ok need to bolt on some 970s and see what happens. Just my opinion!

AUTOCITY HAS A GOOD THING GOING FOR IT WITH THIS CLASS. IT ALL ABOUT COST OF RACING. ITS CHEAPER AND BETTER RACING THE WAY IT IS NOW. IF THEY TRY TO CHANGE THE CRATE MOTOR RULE. THEY WILL LOSE MORE CARS THEN THEY WILL GAIN. ITS JUST CHEAPER RACING FOR THE DRIVERS NO BIG MOTOR COST. RUN ON OLD TIRES LONGER AND A LOT BETTER AND CLOSER RACING. WHY DO YOU THANK ASA, SUPERPRO AND USPRO ALL HAS THE SAME RULES. TO KEEP THE COST OF RACING DOWN AND CHEATING OUT. IF DIXIE DONT WANT TO GO THAT WAY THEN FINE THEY HAVE THERE OWN CLASS AND AUTOCITY WILL HAVE THERE OWN CLASS.

autocity shouldve never changed i have a latemodel with a outlaw body and built motor i dont see how that saves money i would have to buy a template body then buy a crate motor then what would i do with my motor let it set in the corner if you didnt have a car and built a new one it might be cheaper but for me and alot of other guys it wasnt worth it thats why alot of guys run dixie or owosso or whittimore if autocitys acss class is doing so good then why are they trying this to let us run their next year besides anymore no racing is cheap unfortunetly besides cant you buy the sealed bolts theirs probably guys with cratemotors that are cheating besides i swear theirs guys that run autocity and they said it aint a horsepower track anyway

I was at the 100 lap race and i didn't see it as better racing as they just kept going around and around,only 2 cars were able to pass,maybe after watching 27 mods,that acss race looked boring and it is because you have a crate motor and a 10inch slick,it was not fun for me and others around to watch as i like passing but everybody has their own idea's of what's good or bad,plus it looked like the radio's didn't help cause a wreck there should have been avoided if radio's worked.Just add weight to the 700hp 2bbl outlaw cars but put them on the same tire as the 210 hp crate motors.

Hehehe, yeah ACSS races can be pretty boring with not much passing. Especially after watching the super lates last night. With no tech or inspection of the ACSS motors the crates are a joke. Talk to some of the drivers and the accusations of each other cheating under the hood are plenty.

I think someone has been smoking something very illegal if they think a 2bbl engine has anywhere even close to 600, let alone 700 HP. by the way....Which crate engine has only 210 HP?

RZ

6-700 hp with a 2 barrel??????????????????? Dude what are you smokin? more like 450-475 My LLM was atop 5 dash car at AC, many fast times and dash wins the best we ever got on the pump was 490, and I doubt there were just a couple that were a few ponys more than that you run the Templates 200 pounds lighter than the outlaws and it will be close

Not smoking or doing drugs at all,was a joke if you read my other posts the hp numbers keep going up but laST TIME I SAID SOMEONE WAS SOMETHING OR DOING SOMETHING I GOT A LETTER FROM THE HIGH UP PEOPLE to stop it,bet you don't get one!!fastbruce i don;t know you at all but to get 450-490hp is huge from a 2bbl,and these crate engine guy's are all complaining that the other crate guy is cheating either after rebuilds or other tampering ways,fastbruce you ever run tri city/owosso with your llm?

Most guys with 2 barrel carbs are running 425-450 hp. If there are any 470 hp out there they are few and far between. Also, my dads best time with 970s was a 15.94 at auto city, and that was with a 4 barrel outlaw car. How could he show up and run 970s with a 2 barrel against guys running 10 inch slicks that are running in the 15.50s? What kind of race would that be?? 10 inch slicks are 3/4 of a second faster than the 970s.

Last year Mark Klein won at the end of the year with a crate motor at dixie and has run the top 5 all this year.

There is street stocks running them HP numbers at both tracks , Ours was 423 at the flywheel on a engine dyno 3 years ago. I'd be guessing that some outlaw lates are closer to 475 to 490. Just guessing don't know for sure.

depends on whos dyno. a lot of dynos give off higher numbers than are really true.

0 correction, true power. I know what your sayin,Heck could make it read whatever you want.

The 490hp was with a BIG 2 barrel, with a legal 500 carb we were 460, I agree there are some very happy Dyno's out there my best time at AC with a 2 barrel and 8 inch sportsman tires was a 16.07 i think Mark had a low 0 with 8 inch tires

i completely agree with everything d3man said!!

Point of information,
When I worked for Jomar Race Engines, I have built a few 2 barrel motors for Owosso, Toledo, Auto City , Dixie, Tri City, etc. The hi dollar motors were around 490 to 550 HP and the older less expensive motors were around 425 to 490 HP.