This is straight off of the USA site. (www.usamodifieds.com)

UNITED

ASPHALT MODIFIED RULES



ATTENTION MODIFIED RACERS TECH INSPECTORS

TRACKS / SANCTIONING BODIES



RULES AMENDMENT # 1

06/23/08



Due to several calls and questions regarding the roof and sail panel heights and to reinforce existing rules….



Rule # 5 Body: (Which says in part) No wings or aerodynamic devices inside or outside of car.



Rule # 28 Overall: (Which says in part) Sanctioning Body and/or Track reserves the right to change, modify, add, or delete to these rules as they deem necessary in order to ensure fair, competitive, and affordable racing.



The following Rule Amendments are being made and will go into effect 06/27/08.



Under # 5 Body: Add the words Roof must mount within ½” to the top of the cage and still meet existing roof rules, and Diagram (M).



Under Diagram © Lower the maximum roof height to 46” Max.





Note: UNITED Asphalt Modified Rules are committed to keeping modified racing as affordable as possible, and also everyone on the same rules as possible. No individual race team, chassis or body manufacturer will be allowed to read between the lines of the rules, in the gray area, and cost other race teams money and time. That’s why we have rule # 28 !

can somebody answer this question for me? steve ellis owns the usa modified series, right? if so, why is it that some of the cars that are built right in his shop, that have not been modified in any way, shape or form from the way his shop builds them, don't fit the his rules for his series. i won't say which cars, and which rules they don't meet, because i don't know all of them right off the top of my head, but i know that there ARE some out there. seems like he would make sure the cars that he builds would easily fit the rules to his series.

If he is a good business man he should probably build whatever his customers want.

Ray

What about the Ford front sub car's he built for year's that are now illegal,doesn't make much sense to make your own car's illegal.

The funny thing about that is that they mis-read an existing rule that was supposed to outlaw mcpherson strut cars, like 80s camaros and other unibodies, and they use it to get rid of ford stubs. Not that I really care, since we dont have one anymore.

What is the purpose of the roof height amendment? I'm assuming there was something people were doing to cause the amendment.

we really don't go fast enough for aero dynamics to give us much of an advantage anyway.

From what I have been told about the Ford strut front end is that some fabricators down in OH & IN, were taking the Ford Crown Vic type of frame and cutting out the front cross member and running the strut rods reward like a SLM, thus moving mass and swing weight towards the center of the chassis.

On the roof I have seen a lot of cars that are arching the hood and the roof and YES this is an aero advantage on a faster track like ORP, Salem, Winchester, Baer Field, I'm sure it would even help some at Springport, Owosso, Dixie and A/C. Would not be much adavntage at say Spartan, Whittimore or Kalamazoo.

If you think a little air does not help much, drive down the road at 55 mph, hold your handout flat and then tilt it up and down, just like we all used to do when we were little kids and see what happens.

Your hand for example sake is 5" x 7" = 35 sq inch. Now take a 4' x 5' roof @ 20 sq ft and tell me that there is no aero advantage.

Gov

Would that rule amendment come from the goofy looking Modified that ran in the Sam Faur Memorial race, in which had the funky roof, back up very high and front down really low (downforce)

Kyle, from what I understand that is exactly how that rule amendment came into play.

Rock , you should not assume he only makes cars for his series. There is a big world out there and we are a small part of it. Not even the center of it either.Outlawing that chassis was a good move to save us all money by having to update or lose.

That Stacy car was funky looking and I don't know why it was allowed to race with a roof like that. Those racin front brakes are now ilegal in USA mods also why hasn't someone mentioned that? I was going to buy them till I heard that. $800 saved.

Strange how no one noticed for so long. I have to cut off 1/8 inches on sail panels and no one notices front steel rotors with 8 bolt holes in them. Strange isn't it?

They did not get rid of Ford subs,just the new ones with aluninum parts and struts is all. There are plenty of crown vic frames around to use from 02 or so back. They are full of holes to lighten them.

My mistake on the Ford chassis I made reference too. The Crown Vic uses the same style lower control arm as the Impala.

The chassis that was outlawed used the narrow lower control arm, with the OEM strut rod that ran forward to a cross member.

These may have been an LTD chassis.

Dick, AMS & USA did outlaw the Ford chassis like the old Bice, Dowker and the ones Buck was building.

This came straight from Steve Ellis.

Gov.

It is the ltd11 or cougar chassis Dan and did you happen to ask Steve why that they were outlawed?I guess it doesn't matter to me , just curious.

That should be illegal, and as far as I knew it was without outlawing a whole bunch of cars that people (that weren't cheating) already had. What bothers me is that they read the rules however they want to get the outcome. The rule said mcpherson strut, and that has been the intent for as long as I remember, until now. The Bice ford we had shouldn't have been illegal, it used all the stock pickup points just like it's supposed to. As far as I know Buck's cars do too.




Didn't the existing rook rake rule catch that? Hell, I remember more than 10years ago we were at Shady Bowl for the Pepsi national (maybe the firecracker) and a car showed up with a roof like that and they made him fix it right there before he raced... and they did. I can't remember if you were there that year or not Dan, do you remember that story? Seems like it was a white and blue 6 car. I know we crashed the year you were there and finished like 8th or something the year before.




Oh well, doesn't effect me either way. Why should I care.

The Dowker used the LTD and Cougar, From what I understand about the strut front is they (USA) just didn't want to have to look into one more thing. I believe that is what Dan was told. That is why I have a Ellis asphalt car, and now a nice Ford strut front UMP car. Big $$$ saving there. Dick I think if you look at the AMS rule they do allow those brakes (not 100% sure) and in the rule it was stated the rule would be USA and AMS along with local/United. not saying it is right.
Also to think that aero does not play a role at short tracks, is dead wrong. Dan used a simple example of this, and even at Spartan or Springport it can come into play. I have spent a lot of time playing with sprint and super mods and aero. There are many little things that one can do to really make a big difference, wait and see.
Steve also builds fab front cars for Florida mods, so yes he is a great business man, and really has move the mods in the right direction, don't always agree (right Keith) but he is the guy with the pencil.
The Wizard

oh yeah, I almost forgot, speaking of aero... I feel the wind push my helmet around a lot more in the modified at Springport than I did in the sprint car at I96, the sprint goes about 40mph faster by my rough calculations. Maybe the nose wing is pushing air over the driver in the sprint? sounds like aero to me... granted I know its a lot more in depth than that... but it can't be denied. Is it the difference between winning a losing, probably not, but it's there nonetheless.

Gavin,, the nose wing is actually pushing the air up to the top wing, that is why you don't pick up that much,, if you added a cowl to your mod you would feel less as well. Also has a lot to do with the cockpit area and how open it is.. Also I hope to have pictures of the headers for you in a couple weeks.. have to make a few tweeks for the J&J chassis/dash from the Stewart.. Going to have to revisit the whole design to make them more universal.. What chassis do you have?? Also hood drawings are almost done, but may wait until later and start with "NORMAL" stuff.

The rules say stock brake parts from same manufacturer as chassis but that is never enforced. If steel 8 bolt rotors are legal in front why does the rule say that they are ok for the rear specifically? Shouldn't it say racing rotors ok on front also? But then how would you bolt them on,I have never seen a 8 bolt rotor on any GM hub or seen one in the hi-perf parts book either. I would love to have that advantage over everyone who cannot afford the $800 bill for them. I did have a Camaro once that pinto 2 inch drop spindles and gm calipers with 68 drum brake steering arms. hahahaha

Don't want to argue the little things but, what it says is. Must be OEM Steel "type" operative on all four wheels drums,disc. Must maintain OEM dimensions for hub/rotor/caliper cannot be drilled or lightened. Bolt pattern may be changed larger studs ok. rear aftermarket ok min .810 thick vented only etc. As one who loves the gray area this would be easy to argue if I had them on my car (don't worry I don't) The "OEM steel type" as long as the dimensions are OEM is easy to get around with the word "TYPE" in there. The extra holes is easy I messed up drilling them out for a different bolt pattern, and knowing most tech guys, they don't want to set and agrue during a hot day, finding one that sticks by the guns is rare.
Dick I understand you had a good run the other night at the big "O" congrats,, and what is this about a new body ??? How will I ever find you in the pits.. Hope to see you soon over there on an off Kazoo weekend.

The USA tech inspector said they were not in the spirit of the even playing field or the spirit of good competition. I will buy them if someone I race against has them. You can only go as fast as your brakes can stop you safely from. I would use stainless rotors off a snowmobile with copper pads myself or maybe a crotch rocket brake setup. They would fit the stock type rule just fine.

The USA mods said don't bring them to race with us cause we will not let you race so I did not order them but if they are ok by everyone else I will get them and use 4 piston calipers from another stock type vehicle. Does anyone know what cars from the 60's had WIDE FIVE hubs and wheels? This is a test of your production car knowlege,they were on what cars. The USA said we could use stock type parts on our mods but did not think wide fives would be legal. Too bad cause they are CHEAPER than 5 on 5 hubs we have to use to save us money. Yup that is right we have to run the expensive hubs to save us money. Once again some stupid grandfather rule cost us big money based on ignorance and sticking to something till it kills us. I am surprised we do not have to nail horseshoes to our tires cause some one in the know thinks we don't need rubber tires.

Dick,

Perchance was it a Ford GT40 Shelby? They were production in the 60's to compete in LeMans and Sebring factory classes and it would make sense that they had wide fives on them.

Just wondering,

have a good day,

schinde

So what will happen now to those cars with that particular Ford clip? Will track rules start to follow the USA rules and eliminate them? Kzoo already runs USA rules. I dont plan to run any USA shows but if the tracks start to follow this rule many cars will be obsolete or in need of reclipping. I am currently reassemble my Harsen car with the clip in question, maybe I should stop now and make other plans? What do you guys think, or am I getting ahead of myself?
opinion appreciate.

thanks
Roger

Roger,, this is just my opinion,, I took the chassis I had (Dowker) that has a Ford clip on it, and I'm switching it over to run on the dirt under the UMP rules. They have no issues yet,but I didn't want to take a chance of getting the car done and not being able to run it.. It is not just the USA rules that have it in them, it is the United Modified rules that the USA tour runs.. I don't know how close to black and white some of the tracks around here are going to follow them,probably depends on car counts. I guess before I got it all buttoned up, maybe put a call into Gary at Kazoo or somebody and ask.
The Wizard

amen on the 5x5 thing... but they don't look like scary racecar parts so they must be cheaper. Same thing with aluminum rear hubs, they are cheaper than the steel ones that we have to run to save us money. I spent more money building the last modified than I did my sprint car. There's not a stock "type" part (not 1) on the sprint. Well maybe the mag would be stock from an airplane or a model A or something.

I think VWs had wide fives, also seems like I saw a 30s ford that used them... Sounds like stock type to me. Rotors for those things are dirt cheap too.

Dick,

I assume that you are talking about the hubs on my car seems that you have been after them for a while now. The hubs on my car are Stock hubs. and yes I do have 8 bolt rotors on them. As far as I am concerned they are not a racing advantage like you are thinking. The rotors I use are .810 x 11.75 which are thinner than stock rotors, and close to the same diameter, so there is no advantage there. As far as the rotating weight issue, they only weigh 1 pound less than a stock rotor, (I put them on the scale to compare.) The reason they are on my car is for safety issues. I have seen a number of guys break rotors and not be able to steer the car, and drive straight into the wall. If I brake a rotor I still have control. Now which guy would your prefer to be near if something like that happens? And also for the cost, they are not $800, we found them at a swap meet in Detroit for $100 for the pair, then bolted on rotors at $20 a piece. so we have $140 into front hubs and rotors, that are much safer than any other stock rotor. I see your side of the argument, but in reality these hubs and rotors save us money, as well as possibly the racecar if something were to happen.

Not trying to start anything, just giving out some info, and stating my opinion.

Hope this helps clear some concerns.

Nick Clemens

Who makes those "Stock" hubs. Just curious. Not trying to get in the middle lol.


ray

Give me the part number so I can buy some. Steel rotors are safer than cast iron is right but I cannot find any STOCK hubs that accept racing rotors.I was going to buy them but everytime I buy something like that(very questionable) and bought it I had to trash it a few weeks later. The USA says no. Lets clear it up so we can ALL have them or ALL not is all. Give me a GM part number so I can do a search. This swap meet price thing is not valid. That is why Kerns says racing catalog prices apply. I will buy yours and race them against you and you can go back to the swap meet buy some more. They must be common if they are just old hubs.

Why do you think steel rotors are not superior to cast iron made in China junk like most of us have? I would think they would be better later in the race when my iron rotors are blue and warped and I would have an advantage over others. I don't think they are in the spirit of low cost budget racing as the rules indicate they should be.I would like them and will buy them and shut up if noone else objects. Does everyone else here want me to have race hubs and rotors? I have my card in my hand and Lefthander has them in stock,i just do not want to take em back off and sell them for $100 at swap meet to get rid of them.

Racin Ray, you should be in the middle and voicing your opinion because it may cost you $800 bucks to keep up and everyone else too. That is why the USA said no because it would cost eveyone money to stay even. I broke a rotor at Angola this year that cost me a good finish when my wheel left me so I see your point and it is valid but so is mine and I would just like to not waste money just to take em off and put em out the on the shelf with the other junk.


The wide fives came on 62-66 Pontiac Bonneville 2+2. They are STOCK but not in the spirit of budget racing.

12x broke one at Spartan in the brian heeney race. Coulda been a lot worse and caused a lot more damage.





Disc or drum, just curious.

Dick said:

"The wide fives came on 62-66 Pontiac Bonneville 2+2. They are STOCK but not in the spirit of budget racing"

Interesting.

Neat note of automotive history.

Did some more thinking on those GT 40's, which I always have thought were a downright great looking car, and dug out some of my really old magazines that had articles on them. As soon as I saw the first side picture, I realized that they were center mount, spinoff wheels, which I should have realized given my long interest in LeMans and Sebring, but somehow, the wide five set up seemed likely for those cars.

Also noted some pictures that showed them with wire wheels from the early 60's vintage models, and the later, quicker and more successful models had mag style wheels on them. Likely due to weight differential.

Nonetheless, that was a great question Dick, and a good history/trivia type thing also.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Gavin, never considered VW's, even though I owned several and loved everyone of them.

have a good day,

schinde

BTW - why do we even run roofs? Arm restraints are cheaper than roofs. Could just as easily put a number on the back deck if that were an issue.

I noticed that Lorain County Speedway allows roofs as an option.

Topless shows are cool!


Wait are we still talking racecars.......

I'd run without a roof, especially at places like Spartan. No aero to effect or anything.

Sign me up for a topless show (Omar's),,races also.. I agree with Gavin,, make them an option (with arm restraints) you are starting to see more and more convertables on the road. And if you really read the rules (like I do) it doesn't say you have to have a roof (I'm sure it is assumed) it just says they have to be glass.

Yeah but it says you must have a number on the roof, so they could use the other side of the coin against you.

I love the topless nights, it is so easy to get in the car but roasting in the sun is no fun. I used to have an -- with knock offs,dual carbs,dual ignitions,over head cams and dual pipes out the rear with wire wheels and a 4 speed and was a convertible. Anyone know what car that could even possibly be??? It was a 1962 model for a clue. 2 seats,left and right no back seat.

Schinde, what is the hardest spark plug to ever need to be changed in the 60's and 70's? It is a common car with a optional motor and it was the right side rear plugs for another clue. It is a 60's car that we still worked on in the 70's and 70's models were easy to change. This is a VERY popular little critter to this day, in fact is is worth much more now and are show cars,drag racers and slammers today.


Kevino, go to Uncle Bucks in Durand. No cover,free food on Wednesday and usually cute girls. I am gonna quit taking my wifey cause she steals all my girls. Right off the I 69 Durand exit 118.

Ok,

I'll take a stab at the two,

Did you have a Jaguar at that time? Can't remember the specific style definition, but seemt o remembe the Jag's were of that type and design as you describe.

The toughest vehicle that I have ever had to change the right side plug on in the sixties era were the Mach 1 Mustangs with the 390, or 428's. The t'birds werent' much better. The4 only other one I can thnk of at this time was the AMX two seater, (Javelin, I think it was called?)

Of course, the tunnel port 427 Ford motor wasn't much better.

I had a 69 Super Cobra Jet Mach one with the 390, that car as wicked fast and I still wish I had it. Sold it in a moment of weakness when my daughter was 8, bought a so called family car with the proceeds and proceeded to have a teen playing st***y finger pull out in front of me driving a mid sixties Chysler Imperial tank (at least I think it was the Imperial, that great demo derby car of those days). Proceeded to total out my family car, (21,500 new, 826 miles on it, 20,100 in damages).

Thankfully, neither she or I was seriously hurt. Went back to driving fecal-mixers after that.

have a good day,

schinde

One mile from my home, I can see it from my front yard.

most ford pony cars with fe engines were hard. and some chrysler pony's with hemi's and some wedges were hard. the ford's, you had to raise the engine alot. almost out. some did cut holes in tthe shock tower, but, that wasn't good, nor did it make it that much easier. i got to do them. mostly because i was willing to try and wouldn't quit until it was done. the worst i saw was a '69 cougar 428. the middle two plugs on both sides were impossible to get at, and you had to take the engine all the way out to get to them. by the way. the v.w. rim wide 5 bolt pattern and the '32 ford [that's used to this day in oval track racing] are not the same.

steve "pops" pastorino

That's true, I got overheated waiting to go out in the midget a few times last year, I hate wating in the car either way. Just need grid girls like the GP motocycle guys get.

Could this have been an Austin Healey?

I've got a Mopar engine from the early sixties, this one actually being a 1962. The block is aluminum. What is it?

-Maurice

Valiant slant six!

Bingo! This particular one actually came out of a 62 Dodge Lancer, but still same car, just the Dodge version of the Valiant.

225 Slant Six with die-cast aluminum (yes, actually die-cast) block, steel cylinder liners, and steel upper and lower main bearing caps. Quite well engineered. The block weighs 45 lbs.

Hmmm... what's this got to do with Modified roof heights?

-Maurice

Nothing actually Maurice,

other than the fact that you could not kill those motors, no matter how hard you tried, they would be a great mod claimer motor when some get to amending other rules.

I can remember friends of mine overhating those slant six Valiants so badly they would shut down, let them cool, add some water and they would run without a problem.

hence, the connection to this thread.

have a good day,

schinde

Dick,

I am not sure of the part number for certain, and am not going to tear my spindle apart to get it, but I will tell you it is a STOCK GM camaro hub (they are almost identical to a drum brake hub from the big car era, the only difference is that it has a machined boss on the back to accept a rotor instead of sliding a drum over the studs.), and if they still reproduced the rotors that are supposed to bolt to them, those would be on my car instead of the racing ones, unfortunately they dont, so we built something as close as possible to the original rotor. When you come pick up your car from windpushers, feel free to stop down and check it out for yourself if you still arent convinced.


Nick Clemens

Here is a picture of what the stock hub and rotor looked like before we bolted on the other rotor

Dick,, let me try the ? Was the car a MGB, or midget?? I know mine had knock off, 2 seats,duals,etc.... The other one might be a Hemi Cuda or a Shelby GT 500. I know I've had both and they were a real pain to change plugs on.

Kevin,

I'd forgotten about those wonderful little cars, the MGB's.

Lots of fun to drive, one of those cars you would drive and never forget.

The Mustangs were by far the worst I've ever worked on, not only mine, but htose of my friends who had to have one after one ride in mine.

But, those were the good old days, dual point ignition, fuel gobbling, thunder cranking, tire smoke spewing monsters that scared most people when you lit it up beside them.

Oh, and by the way, one of the most fun things I did as a youngster was with my Delmont 425 Olds, run it along about 45, shut it off and wait for about fifteen seconds 'til I was right beside another car, then turn 'er back on and ************.

Can't tell you some of the expressions I got from people when I did that, especially when under a bridge, Or the amount of mufflers I replaced afterwards.

have a good day,

schinde

I agree Matt those were the days.. I use to be able to fill my Hemi Cuda for about what 3 gallons cost now, and that was with Sunoco 260. That was the good stuff, they had the pumps with the selector dial on the side to chosse which fuel you were getting,, Now that I think about it that station only had two tanks and Sunoco had about 6 grades back then,, I think I was getting screwed even back then..

Oh, such fun.

I even had the pleasure of working for Poor Paul for a while in my college days, overnight shift, at Interstate Sunoco at I96 and Logan, pump jockey, emergency wrench and towing.

Those overnight shifts were sooooo much fun.

Sorry about the hijacking here, so I will get back to the basics, even back then, I was experiementing with roof heights and slopes, and wrenching on some dastardly cars fresh off the highway with a problem.

One learned a tremendous amount in those days. You could make a car run back then with almost anything.

Regretfully, no more.

Too bad.

Dick, we need your answers when you can provide them, who of us was close?

have a good day,

schinde

Kevino is right, an MGB. as far as the spark plug,if one car came into the chevy dealer where I worked and said thier car was missing and was tuned recently then you knew for sure they skipped the rear plug and a 1962-65 Chevy 2 Nova with a 283 motor and iron exhaust cause you had to almost pull the motor out to change it. So you could bet your tail on it that was never changed.

Nick, running race rotors is against the spirit of the rules to keep costs down. If they are ok I am going to buy the nice ones from Lefthander and run them. I just don't want to waste money on something that will not fly for long. I have done that more than a few times before and I ask questions first now. I bet you could find a hat style rotor off a STOCK car like Impala or Grand Am or something and redrill the bolt pattern and have a CAST IRON rotor made in China just like the rest of us.Just slide the on and make a caliper mount to fit them up to the hub. I was thinking of that but if steel race rotors are leagl you can bet your tail I will have em in a few weeks.

In my younger days,

I was a Ford guy and Oldsmobile, (yeah, I know, GM).

Didn't do much of anything with Chevy's, save for drive 'em. The MGB I drove wasn't mine, but a friend's, and he had me drive most of the time when we went toolin' around. Had a lot of fun with that.

My Old's motors were early ones, the 425's in the mid sixties 88's, and a 330 in a 64 F85.

Also had a 65 Cutlass Convertible, red with black top, that one was a girl catcher, almost as much as my 'stang.

have a good day, (and thanks for bringing up the memories)

schinde

I'd rather have a racing hub with a stock rotor than a stock hub with a racing rotors. Of the 2 rotors I have had break, one was simply a Chinese crap freebie... and one was a better quality one that I should have replaced after hitting the wall.

Both of them broke in the hub area. The center stays on the Spindle, and the rest of it (with wheel attached) rips off and ruins the brake guides on the knuckle.

Is that how yours broke Dick? I have never seen the actual brake portion break.

Best parts I've found now is the ULTRA premium rotor line from Napa. Very high quality castings. There may be others (ACDelco) but I'm done with experimenting on stuff like that.

I'd LOVE to run a hat style stock rotor on a racing hub as Dick suggested. It would make me feel WAY safer.

Mike