heres a couple of questions
1 do you have to register your car the first time you go? if so how much?
2 what tires do they run?
3 what gear would a factory stock from A/C run?
4 is the web site a up to date to make sure our car would be legal to run there?

What is the rules the fours? if team 80 can run we will be there. right Ryan,

Fred,

Car, Driver and Slab rental for the night is 35 dollars. There is no yearly registration. Tony came over from the east side in the 32 Camaro and was in 2nd up till the last lap when he had a problem. Im sure he would like to run that lap again. I think Rich could tell you what gear change he made if you ask them.

Owosso's rule package is a little different from AC and Dixie, however I saw cars from All three tracks running side by side last night from start to finish. I would describe the Owosso Street stock rule package kind of a cross between a sportsman and factory stock rule set from AC and Dixie. If you are bringing the car I saw you win at with Dixie last season I would believe you would be competitive.

We are on 970's at Owosso and have a good selection of new tires if you need any during the course of the event.

We will be changing web servers soon with Owosso. Please bear with us while we are working to get this change over and many others done mid season. My telephone number is the same (989) 709- 6113. Depending on the building Im in at the track sometimes the signal is not the best. I hope to have that resolved by mid week.

Wherever you choose to run good luck to you. Have a nice day. Jeff

The 4 cylinder rules are under consideration right now. They have migrated into a problem and we are working on a solution for the remainder of the season. We will have an announcement later in the week. I dont have net access at the track right now, so please be patient and I will post back in a day or 2. Thanks Jeff

They way I look at the 4 cylinder rules is this. Don't allow ANY overhead cam engine, including the Dodge Neons. It basically makes it to where you have to have a Neon to compete. They have such an advantage in the power department over a Pontiac 2.5 Iron Duke or Chevy 2.2. If you want to allow overhead cam engines, let the guys run the Olds Quad 4's, or any other American made inline 4 cylinder engine. No foreign. Either way would work for me.

This is just my opinion from a fan standpoint. Other opinions will vary.

Quad 4s are impossible to find for one,,,,, neons are a dime a dozen so why not make the more affordable car legal? an cheaper to go fast with out cheating

i agree with Fred let the neons run, Jeff please consider letting the neons run Thanks.

so does that mean the no Ford mustangs they are overhead cam engine

I don't see how Quad 4's are impossible to find. GM used them up until 2004 in Cavaliers, Aleros, and Grand Ams. They're everywhere. The Neons have an unfair advantage vs. anything else the way the rules are now. If you don't have a Neon, you ain't winnin'.

I sent an email to Tricknology to review what type of exhaust restrictitons could be put in place to level the playing field between 8v, 12v, 16v, sohc & dohc motors.

Seems to me that all these motors should perform about the same if they pass the same volume of air..

without the technical expertise to say this forumula would absolutely work.. I'd propose something like this :

8v, sohc, no minimum weight, no exhaust restrictions
12v or 16v, sohc, 2450lbs, 1 1/2" exhaust restriction.
dohc, 2500 lbs, 1 1/4" exhaust exhaust restriction.

Exhaust must be tight after races.. if your exhaust has come loose, you lose.

This is very easy to tech.. a scale and a tape measure.

It would allow every gas powered FWD car on the road (non-turbo/non-supercharger) to be legal with only very minor modifications.. ones which could be added or reversed in under 10 minutes and at next to no cost.. to make the cars possible to travel very easily.

What do you think Arnold.. Maurice.. would that level the playing field ?

make a few calls an see if you can find any in the local salvage yards GOOD LUCK this is one of gm's worst designs

They are everywhere. One of GM's worst designs? I don't think so. The early versions had head problems, but they fixed that back in the 80's. It was a 180hp 4 cylinder if you use the W-41 camshafts. They were awesome pieces of engineering!

Just mock Whittemores rules, and nearly all makes are legal.. enough said.

They got balance shafts and more torque (but less hp) around 96. Name changed to Twincam.

Whittemore's rules wipe out all DOHC cars.. and basically are designed to allow mustangs to win. I guess that's why you like them so much.

WORD, THEM ARE SOME VERY WISE WORDS...........

the old 80 truck will be there, it is now numb 18. rookie driver, will be a blast for her. Shes 14 and if I catch any of you looking at my oldest girl ill skull f--k you. lol

And the rear wheel drives are always winning... why even go if you can't win?

AMEN Patrick...

Why even go... especially if they only continue to pay top 3? Great, if the souped up rear wheels are allowed we'll just go ride around and leave with nothing.
I'll move to pures before i'll spend that kind of jack on a Mini-Pony stock.

Guys, if the class only has 3 or 4 four cylinders show up that can make the rule book as it stands we are going to have to drop the class. 3 or 4 4 cyls on a 3/8 mile is not a good show.

The rule book is pretty straight forward for stock 4 cylinders- If you get here and we dont have enough we will give you tow money back home, but Owosso is not going to take a butt whooping online due to the limited numbers of minis to run there and what the migration in rules has become before our group took ownership of the speedway

There is no good solution for these rules that have changed so many times that will please everyone. The last several posts here are a great example of that..

We are paying for heat races now. If you have enough show up there will be money paid to the top 3 in each heat as well.

If you want to call your friends that have 4 cylinders and then call us and discuss it we can.

We can not change the rules mid stream to allow wide variations in cars unless everybody that has been here in the class agrees that it is what they want.

Sorry, but it is the cards that were dealt before we took ownership.

The easy solution would be cancel the class and not deal with the negativity surrounding the minis at Owosso. Nobody wants to do that, but if there are only 4 or 5 that can make the rules that will be the unfortunate outcome.

Thank you for your time. We wish you the best. Jeff

Guys with FWD's who are scared to run with RWD's talk to Jimmy Scavarda, or Kyle Tremble from Whittemore.... both whooped on both FWD's and RWD's and bth won everywhere they went, even a championship. Don't sit here and give me the guilt trip about "not being able to compete" IMO it's a joke. Go out, do some research, work on your car, make it faster --- who knows you might even learn a thing or two.

Last I checked, when was the last time a RWD car won a invite at Spartan or Springport?

Excuses guys, excuses... AC runs RWD/FWD's and what would you know.. FWD winning... If I were to build another Mini (which I'm not, (yet) LOL) I would build a Neon...

Good-Day.

Like I said before, the Mini's that ran Whittemore last year at the last race were surely not anything close to being legal to the rules at Spartan, Owosso, and Autocity. When your talking Headers, and aftermarket racing springs, racing shocks, screw adjusters, brake bias adjusters, and so on. Half of those items arent even available for some of the FWD cars. Autocity does a good job with their rules to even the playing field. I think you need to let both run, FWD and RWD, but they need to be kept under control. Racing a 100hp FWD car against a 300+hp RWD loaded to the hilt isnt fair and Like the 55 said we wont (and cant) spend that kind of $$ to compete.

First of all 300 hp is not even close to what a stock 2.5 liter iron duke has. re read kyle's post its right on the money. my daughter is 14 and at practice yesterday was not even close to your qualifying times. she will get faster but the truck is within your rule book. no fancy racing nothing. alex will kill her with his FWD.Ryan

The top three qualifiers at Whittemore last year out ran everyone else by 1.00 seconds. One of the drivers personally told how much he had into his engine and how much hp it made.

I have no problems with RWD at all, I think Owosso should do whatever they have to get more cars and keep the class alive. I just dont want to HAVE to build a RWD to have a chance to win. I also dont want to spend thousands of dollars on a engine to compete for $100.00 to win. Allow them but make it a level playing field.

Kyle,

There have been lots of RWD win Invites at both Springport and Spartan in the last year or so. As a matter of fact, some of the worst Invites to watch were when a RWD practically lapped the field. Scott Quaal is the first one to come to mind. If you read the R & R thread, you'll see where we have stopped the Pony's from going to Invite rules, because of all the regulars feelings about competing against the RWD. We have found no fair, even trade off where they all can compete together, on a level playing field, especially at Springport.

The RWD's that come over on Sunday are 99% Auto City Hornets these days. To me, that is the closest I have seen so far, as far as level competition goes between RWD, and FWD 4 Cylinders, but our FWD Pony's are allowed some modification, as compared to a regular Friday show. Maybe that is the direction Owosso should be looking into.

Also, if you were to ask Jimmy Scavarda the question you posed, I don't think the answer would be what YOU expect Kyle. He would win on Friday at Spartan, and get killed on Saturday at Owosso.

But I am hardly an expert when it comes to the rules.

You dont have to be, just a good observer.

Its quite sad when a track has to cancel a class due to car count. This is a entry level class that should be affordable for anyone interested in becoming a race car driver. I think car counts will come up in this class now that the promoters are spending more time in the Owosso area besides Saturday Nights. Our track in the U.P. started with 3 cars and now see 15-30 cars per night. I hope this class can be saved as it is the beginning to a lot of racers long careers.Thanks, Bear

I think there were 40 4-cylinders that ran at Berlin last Saturday Night. They only run every other week and the class is less then 1 year old.

How and Why did they get so many ?? What are their rules ??

I see that Berlin toughen up their 4-cylinder rules some on the safety side of things (thank god)

http://www.berlinraceway.com/rules/4cylinder_rules.shtml

Copy them word for word.. send someone from Owosso over there on Tuesday (they have a 4-cylinder race on Tuesday this week) give them all one free pit pass and invite them to Owosso for this weekend (4-cylinder's don't run Berlin this weekend)

They should be STOCK,period. That is the purpose of the class,junk yard car racing,
is cheapest and anyone who wants to do pistons,cams,heads should buy a street stock and put that stuff on and race with equal cars not hopped up parts against stock stuff.Next will be pro 4's,limited 4's and late model super 4's just like EVERY other class that did not stick to it's rules

I remember when a track has classes based on times. If your times were lets say 15-16 seconds, you were x class. If you were 16-17 seconds, you were y class. If you ran y class and went faster than the 16 seconds too many times, you had to move to x class. Like breaking out at the drag strip.

Just like he said.

A little closer this time

The only way to gain cars is to keep the class going, not cancel it. Dick, would you sponsor one for $100.00 bucks for the rest of the season. Thanks Bear

I AGREE 100% but we all know racers. There is always going to be someone cheating in every class. Maybe if you want to race 4 cylinders the track should own them and leave them at the track and rent them per weekend with a draw each week for cars. Thats the ONLY WAY it would be completely stock. Scott Qualls Dodge was illegal the whole time seeing that it was a 2.6 liter, but no one teched him out. thats not our fault, good teching would level the field also.

once again its all on the techs, as it should. adjust for a level playing field. I agree 100% with you

Oh yeah PAT, because you know I just have a Mustang in my garage ready to roll. Sorry I don't have a V6 either. I say allow them, but the other rulebooks don't agree, except for Auto City (they do). It makes no difference to me.




Darren Bohne for example, had a good fast car with good knowledge, also won a feature at Owosso against the "fast" RWD's. I had one of them "souped" up RWD Mustangs you speak of, and remember him beating me a few times, not by pure luck either. It IS possible without spending a bunch of money.... 4m.net is a great place to find some speed tips for a FWD car, trust me it can be done. Jimmy Scavarda competed and WON at Owosso, don't tell me it can't be done...



I only recall one RWD win at Spartan in 2006/2007 (Scott Quaal) and 2 2nd place's (Gerry Persails Jr/Fred Parisian) and a 10/11th place finish of the 5 that showed up. 2004 had R&RI which I recally Kenny Clark won, and a few RWD's 3-4-5, and a 1st (Zack Klingston) and a 4th(Kyle Trinklein in my car)I recall a one 3rd place finish (Kyle Callahan) at Springport in 2006, and 2007 had nothing. I guess what I'm saying Ed, is where is the "dominance" you speak of, good runs, yes but it's as bad as you made it sound IMO? As far as Jimmy goes, I guess winning a feature, and a a handful of 2nd and 3rd place finishes is getting "killed"? I don't know... he wasn't beating up on us like he was at SS or SMS, but he wasnt getting "killed" by any means.

I guess when it's all said and done, I guess the rulebook to follow is Auto Citys after further review, keeps them stock, but yet also invites both makes and models to compete, if the teching is there, thats the rulebook to follow.

Kyle,

You talk of Jimmy's car like it was a " stock " shadow with a " stock " motor and he was just that good at setting his car up.............

Jimmy has told several people what he had done to his " stock " motor and transmission ...............

When I talked to him last year about buying his shadow, I was told by Jimmy himself of some things that could be done to make a shadow fast........

I am in no way saying that his former car did/does not pass tech inspection, I am just saying that sometimes tech people are very busy people................

The new owner of Jim's shadow has brought it out to play with us at Springport a couple of times. He set second fastest time last week right behind me and my Neon. He won the heet race and I won the feature. He has not finished a feature in front of me yet.

My Neon is a former Owosso car that my son and I have put many, many hours into to make it a good quick car. My motor is out of a street car I bought for $300 for parts. It had 132,000+ miles on the odometer when we pulled it and installed it in my race car. The motor is completely stock with no internal work done to it.

My Neon is quick due to the suspension and the fact that we have found the way to set it up to turn. The 3 Neons that run up front most every week at Springport are stock with no magical racing parts on them. We have just set them up almost completely the same. They just turn better than most, not all, of the other cars in our class. When you can turn faster then you have more speed to begin with when you start down the straightaway.

Mustangs do not make me whimper with fear......... I say bring them on........... Lets just keep ALL the cars in a class on the same page.............
If they are running headers and an exhaust larger than 1.5 inches then let everyone do the same, even us Neon boys.........
Lets run the same tires also, somehow I do not think the Mustangs would be much of a threat to me if they are on 185/70/14's and have 1.5 inch exhaust.......
I would LOVE to run a Neon that has a lot of ACR, SRT, RT or factory Mopar parts on it. That would be a fun ride............

I think most all racers just want a fair set of rules, whatever they may be for any given track, and the rules enforced.........

Faster competition drives me to find a way to compete with them.........
Besides who would rather dominate a small class of cars when they could race against a large class of cars. If I win against 5 cars I am happy, if I would win against 25 or more cars I would be wound up for days........

I still believe the 4 cylinder fwd cars are the least expensive way to get new racers into this sport of short track racing.
That is what this sport needs now as much as ever, new racers to become hooked..........

Just My Humble Opinions,

YOGI

Todd,

Thank you for a informative response from someone on the other side of the fence on this RWD deal as you are a FWD'er. I know that Jimmy's car is fast as you know what. I'm saying, if hes passing tech, then who are we to say if he's "cheating" or not.. whether he is or not, hes passing technical inspection, and when it's all said and done isnt that all that really matters?

I've stated before and I'll state it again, these Neons and other FWD cars CAN and WILL run with RWD cars all day, as long as those in charge in the tech shed are doing their part. Any type of Mini/Pony Stock division is purely IMO a "momentum" class, if you lose your momentum, you're typically just been passed. It's harder then one might think to regain the speed in these cars. You said it Todd, there are things that can be done to both cars to make them even, thank you for thinking OUTSIDE the box.

If someone is faster then me, passing tech, your darn right I'm going to try whatever it takes within the rulebook to figure out what they are doing, I'm no whiner by any means I agree 100% with your performance from others, drives me to perform to the T, great statement.

You CAN make it work in both worlds, but I guess my opinion doesn't matter.

Have a good day,
-Kyle.

good post, Todd.

Berlin probably had 40 fwd cars because of all the K-Zoo fwd enduro cars around there looking for somewhere to run. Each track needs a beginner class to give new racers a place to get a start. Factory Stocks are not a beginner class! I'm not sure what the answer is in 2008 but ten years from now (or maybe five) the beginner class will be fwd due to the lack of rwd cars to build ie caprices, crown vics,etc...

Kyle,

Getting "killed" were his words. While finishing 2nd, 3rd, or 4th is nice, it isn't what Jimmy was shooting for. He said numerous times he didn't have a thing for the RWD's at Owosso, and when he was there, he was running for a top 5, cause beating those cars were out of the question. Maybe he could fill in the blanks better than I.


Darren Bohne, does that name ring a bell. He dominated when he showed up, either track. He would of swept the 60 lappers, if not for an ignition problem. I understand what your trying to defend, but it is easy for all to see, even casual fans, there is a definate advantage with the RWD cars, from everythiing I have seen. At Spartan, Springport, Owosso, Whittimore, and Auto City. It's just my observation, and opinion.

I don't have the answers to even the playing field, but I am sure some savvy promoter will find the common ground.

If only 3-4 cars are showing up, running in the top 5 only means you took the green.

[quote name='BigEd' date='Jul 12 2008, 12:56 AM' post='130570']
Kyle,

Getting "killed" were his words. While finishing 2nd, 3rd, or 4th is nice, it isn't what Jimmy was shooting for. He said numerous times he didn't have a thing for the RWD's at Owosso, and when he was there, he was running for a top 5, cause beating those cars were out of the question. Maybe he could fill in the blanks better than I.


Darren Bohne, does that name ring a bell. He dominated when he showed up, either track. He would of swept the 60 lappers, if not for an ignition problem. I understand what your trying to defend, but it is easy for all to see, even casual fans, there is a definate advantage with the RWD cars, from everythiing I have seen. At Spartan, Springport, Owosso, Whittimore, and Auto City. It's just my observation, and opinion.

I don't have the answers to even the playing field, but I am sure some savvy promoter will find the common ground.
[/ dont mean to hijack this treadbut Big Ed we got a surprise for you on sunday at spartan so we will see you sunday

Whittemore canceled already as of 11:30 it aint even raining WOW

According to Weather.com there's a 80% chance of rain at race time in Ovid. I'm betting I'll be staying home tonight.

http://radar.weather.gov/Conus/centgrtlakes_loop.php

Not much behind these storms. Rained pretty hard in Capac but easing up.

I have raced mini-stock at Whittemore since the 3rd week they started them back in 1992 I believe.When the class started you would see all kinds of cars on the track from Chevettes,Plmouth Horizons,Pintos,Monzas,All kinds of diffrent cars.After the 1st year people seen that the Pintos seemed to better than the rest and also the Chevy Monza did good.So the next year you seen alot of Pintos and Monzas.Then the 3rd year the Fabulous Ford Mustang with the coil spring rear end was the top dog. The 2300 Ford engine and this Fox body Mustang could be made to go fast and handle good.Back then the Mustang was plentiful and easy to find a good car at a junkyard or just buy one somewhere.They were cheap and they worked good.If you did your homework you could really get alot out of that 2300.And then came all the aftermarket parts and the cars progressed to get faster and better.By 1997-98? we were at over 30+ cars every Sat night.And almost everyone was a Mustang. And at Whittemore that worked fine for many years.Now the class size has began to drop 15-20 mustangs each week.The era of the Mustang is probally nearing its end as the prime car for a ministock.Just as the old Chevelles are getting harder to find for a factory stock.I think a track that wants to develp a mini-stock class with a good car count especillay in a good location like Owosso needs to look at what cars are plentiful now,what cars are in salvage yards,and what ones would be a good potntial mini-stock.It probally needs to be a FWD and lots of them out there.Then theres a good crop of cars to choose from and you can build something that should be close to competitive with all the cars.It may take a year or two to get the rules all tweaked and most cars on a level playing field but it will pan out eventually.It did at Whittemore and it produced some of the best 4 cyl racing around.{Rick M can testify to that}.And it is still producing good 4 cyl racing.Not as many cars as 5 years ago but as time goes by the Mustang will eventually fade and a new style and manufacturer will take its place.And One last thought...your always gonna have 3 groups of cars in a class.Your GONNA have your 3 or 4 FAST guys that do most the winning.Always happens.Then you will have your faster cars that make up the rest of the fairly fast cars.These are the guys that do most of their homework and realize that to win racing you have to work on your car alot.It dont get faster setting on the trailer.Then you have the rest of the cars.If you have enough cars these are the guys that run the B feature.They just want to race and have fun{nothing wrong with that} but these are the cars that will never get much faster.Some because of lack of knowledge about racing,some because of money,some because they just cant work on their car 20 hours a week after working 40+ hours at their regular job and trying to watch their kids while the wife is at work.I will quit rambling on now,I guess I just wanted to say that you need rules set for the type of cars that will be your mainstay.If its Neons then try to build on that.just remember that the playing field is only as even as the car owner/driver wants to make it.If you work on your car you will eventually be in that fast group.If you dont you will probally run B features and have just as much fun that you would running the A main or the fast heat.Hey winning the slow heat or any heat race feels good,especially if its you first time.Jeff and Rick just work on a good set of rules for the ministock and the class will evolve into a big class.Good luck..

[quote name='mrvids' date='Jul 13 2008, 03:42 PM' post='130677']
Keep in mind that Jeff & Rick are taking over someone else's rulebook and not creating the rules from scratch, but suggestions such as the one above is a good place to start.

Very true Mrvids,
This year they are kinda stuck with what they got unless they dont pull the minimum of legal cars needed to have the class race under the pre-set rules.But there is always next year and the next 5 years to look forward to.It took whittemore about 3 years to get a decent size class 15-20 cars and after that the class just BOOMED.The class probally really did keep the track going financially.When you end up at 30+ cars a week in one class it creates a true asset for the speedway,especially if its you lowest class with lowest payouts.