With Owosso Speedway and Whittemore Speedway now working together, A very tempting Late Model Feature pitting the Top 10 in both points standings would be very entertaining to watch.

Owosso Top 10
29 Dave Bigos
17 Russell Cords
70 John Buckner Jr.
19 Ron Hauser
00 Mark Welch
58 Mark Pettit
24A Jerry Lupien
21 Joe Cantu
24 Chris Lupien
11 Tim Felver

Whittemore Top 10
0 Ryan Ostrander
12 Cale Wiltse
53 Nate Freel
34 Pierre Lateinne
07 Melvin Hottois
79 Dan Holmes
96 Rich Haskins
28 Mike Skowronski
89 Russell Kolb
73 Ed Doutre Jr.

Plus, the Top 10 from Dixie Motor Speedway, (Minus Drivers who already appear above)

28 Scott Watkins
50 Chad Bennett
12 Dan Leeck
4 Bernie Murphy
33 Blake Childers
62 Mark Klein
68 Adam Rowe
7 Brad Bilacic
99 Lance Troyer
91 Rick Crisel

Throw in a few more combining all Three Tracks with drivers NOT in the Top 10 in any of the three points standings.
2 Jimmy O. Smith
12 Tom Hoose
21 Mike Samson
04 Mitch Holmes
26 Ryan Etchison
33 Marty England
1 Tony Hoose
43 Ken O’Connor
4 Tony Callahan
15 Chris Stearns

I know there’s plenty more, but that’s 40 Limited Late Models within a Three-Track Radius.

(Thinking out loud) I’m wondering if something could be done as far as putting together a nice little 10-race series between the three tracks with a “Season Championship” event at one of the three tracks, with the last race rotating each season between the three tracks?

Here are some basic rules;
1. 50-Lap Features (Except for the Championship Race, we’ll make that 100 laps)
2. $1,000 to win - $200 to start (Except for the Championship Race, let’s go with $2,000 to Win and $400 to start)
3. Basic Rules combining the three tracks together under one alliance. (The Michigan Late Model Racing Alliance - MLMRA) (Just a name for the sake of this thread) This “series” would be for the Outlaw Bodied Limited Late Models! Of course we wouldn’t discriminate against the Template Bodied / Crate Engine Late Models
4. Two-Tire Rule for these races only. After all, all three tracks run on Hoosier 970s, so everyone would have plenty of those at their disposal and would only have to buy Two (2) tires at each MLMRA Event.
5. A "Winners Circle" Program for teams who appear at all 10 events and a limited Winners Circle Program for those who miss a race or two. (Say $1,000 bonus in addition to the points fund at the end of the year for those with Perfect Attendance)
6. Get rid of the name “Limited” we all know these are Late Models!

2009 Schedule (Again for the sake of this thread)

1. SAT May 2 Owosso Speedway-Ovid, MI – 50 Laps
2. FRI May 22 Dixie Motor Speedway-Birch Run, MI 50 Laps
3. SAT June 13 Whittemore Speedway-Whittemore, MI 50 Laps
4. SAT June 27 Owosso Speedway-Ovid, MI 50 Laps
5. FRI July 10 Dixie Motor Speedway-Birch Run, MI 50 Laps
6. SAT July 25 Whittemore Speedway-Whttemore, MI 50 Laps
7. SAT August 8 Owosso Speedway-Ovid, MI 50 Laps
8. FRI August 21 Dixie Motor Speedway-Birch Run, MI 50 Laps
9. SAT September 5 Whittemore Speedway-Whittemore, MI 50 Laps
10. SAT/SUN September 19-20 Owosso Speedway-Ovid, MI - 100 Laps ($2,000 to Win - $400 to start)

Again this is just an idea I had in my head and thought I’d put it to paper (Or in this case, type it up on a computer screen)

This idea could also be done with regards to the Modifieds as well, that’s coming next.

Thoughts anyone….

I don't see it happenig this year Matt, but maybe you could get it worked out for next season. If anybody could do it it would be you.


Jake

Oh no definitely not this season, this "Idea" would be beginning with the 2009 racing season.

Too much to do to literally lift a series (or two, Modifieds idea still coming) off the ground and off of paper/computer screen and into reality....

How about giving it a name that isn't an accronym. MLMRA sounds like some kind of shot the damn Navy would give me. call it like the Highway men series or the great lakes gamblers run or "The Outlaws series" after Pat Bourdow, or something but not another acronym.

Don,t know if it could happen but would be interesting to see

Jake/Bob

All thoughts and suggestions are good ones, this is just an idea that was written up on a clean sheet of paper (Or in this case, a blank computer screen) to see if something like this would even be possible.

The reason Auto City, Spartan, and Springport aren't mentioned is because;

1. Spartan and Springport don't run "Limited" Late Models
2. Auto City runs Exclusively Template Body / Crate Engine Super Stocks

For these Late Models, it would cater to the existing Outlaw Bodied "Limited" Late Models in the area and those drivers would be the heart and soul of this type of a series.

Of course as mentioned earlier, this series wouldn’t discriminate against the Template Bodied / Crate Engine Late Models and would encourage these cars to join us.

I know there can't be many, but what are the subtle differences in rules between the three tracks and could they be worked out to fall under a common Alliance?

In addition, how would we make Template Bodied / Crate Engine cars combatible to the Outlaw Bodied / Open Motor cars so that one type of car isn't dominating over another type.

They are not that far apart now for the LLM, some minor tweaking and all 3 tracks would be the same. Robby Johnson brought his crate/template to Whittemore a couple weeks ago and was fast time.

Andy, do you think that was because it was on a track like Whittemore, where a underpowered car can still win with a great setup?

I don't know if they would be "even" so to speak on the big tracks like Owosso/Dixie/Auto City. Yet on the same note, Robbie has had strong runs at Dixie in the 970 tire, even a couple feature wins last year, but... on the bigger track's like Owosso/Dixie where the HP can help, do they stand a chance on the same tire? I think if they were on the 10" tire they would beat up on the outlaw cars on the 8" 970, so that can't be an answer... What is?

Maybe regulating a "spec" rev chip for the outlaw cars? Or, do you just leave them the way they are? I'm asking because I don't know... just looking for opinions and ideas as to what others might have to think. I know the tire issue got heated on here between the outlaw/crate cars wanting to run the invite at AC..

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems as though the template car should have a handling advantage over the LLM cars, assuming the same tires are used on both.

The template car is lighter and has better weight distribution.

I would also be willing to bet the template car would look better in a wind tunnel. It's not a big deal on these little tracks, but every little bit helps.

-Maurice

Maurice,

How do you figure a template car is lighter and has better weight distribution? I would be hard pressed to believe that a fiberglass template body weighs less then the 5-6 slabs of aluminum that are used to make a outlaw body. As far as weight distribution, wouldnt that favor the outlaw cars being lighter? The chassis underneath are virtually the same, am I mistaken?

Kyle,

The rules allow the template car to be lighter than the outlaw bodied car.

Template/crate = 2650
Outlaw car = 2800 - 2850 depending on combination of things.

Left side weight on template car is 58%, outlaw car is 56%.

It's in the Owosso rules.

-Maurice

Makes sense, I thought you were talking in general at the same weight. Misunderstood.

Wood,

We would donate our time and car to tweek this a little bit. Maybe sonebody like Robbie Johnson would do the same. If we could get a couple of Outlaw cars also we would be all set. When do you want to start?


Greg

See this is what i'm talking about, asking questions, getting answers, offering help, how can we do this?

Thanks for the offer Greg and thanks for the insight Maurice.

Keep them coming....

Robbie Johnson went to Whittemore and set fast time a few weeks, what did he have to change (If anything) to come run other than maybe the gear?

This is just a reminder for those wondering why only Dixie, Owosso, and Whittemore are included in the proposed new series' for Late Models.

Auto City does run Modifieds, but not this type of Late Model, that's the biggest reason why they're aren't included in the inaugural season. Future expansion would pend on the potential success of the first season.

Wood,
Have you thought about using Raceivers for the series? Maybe they could be stongly encouraged for the first year or two before becoming mandatory.

I would actually be in favor of using Spotters personally, but I understand some teams may not want to go that route in the interest of cost.

I'd be open to suggestions from all prospective teams on this issue and a wide variety of other issues.

There's nothing we can't accomplish or discuss with regards to this whole deal, there are no bad ideas right now.

Spotters equal cost, 2 way systems.... racievers, your race director can call the line up out to the field warn them of a caution or tell them green next time around, leaders are catching the tail of the field. I race with one, cost 80 bucks for the radio, 20 for the ear buds. it's a pretty good system.

Eliminates the need for Spotters then?

Doesn't the Michigan Legends Series use this system? Who else uses this system and how has it helped?

Head out to Crystal, Ron mandates them for all divisions and he is the Michigan rep for the company. I've been fighting to bring them to the asphalt tracks up there since I first used one down south. I gotta admit I was ticked when they made the rule but after one night I saw how much sense it made. Dick Maurer is another big advocate.

The Auto Value/Bumper to Bumper Michigan Legends Series has been using the raceivers for at least three years now and they work very well. The track can communicate to one person (John Turnbull Sr.) and he calls out the orders to the cars as it relates to line-ups after a caution or a red flag.
I feel that there should be spotters at each event. I don't mean spotters for the competitors, I mean spotters for the race track or series. ARCA has spotters in the turns and at different places around the track. The race director and scorers can not and will not always be able to see everything nor will the flagman. It is always important to see who did what to whom when the caution flys to be sure that the proper people go to the rear or get to keep their spot.

I like the raceiver system as one person calls out the orders and everybody on the track hears the same thing all at the same time. :"Green flag out" " Caution, turn two, 2 cars up high" "next time by we go green". The 58 behind the 19 and so on and so on can only help the racers and help the tracks by speeding up the show.

I won't say that raceivers are the best thing since sliced bread but it does make it so that each team does not have to provide a spotter and invest in alot of expensive radio equipment. There are still some guys that show up by themselves at every event and if they had to have a spotter it might just keep them home.

Dave
Definitely! The Race Director, the Chief Starter (Don't like the term Flagman for some reason), the Announcer (You'd be surprised at what they can see!), one spotter in Turns 1-2, and one spotter in Turns 3-4 (Corner Spotters would be 2 Techs) is my thought.

5 sets of eyes on the track.

These are used very efficiently at crystal. their use has trimmed between 45 to 90 minutes a night off the show. last week crystal had 133 cars, started at 7:30 and was done by 11:45. last tar track I was at had 49 cars, started at 7 and wasn't done until 10:30. if you are going to try to promote, go to crystal to learn.

this gets a hearty HOOAH from me. look to the dirt, it's exceedingly popular go see why and what you can bring back with you, besides Matt you have earned the right to go to Crystal you deserve it, And Roger might even let you have the mic for a heat race.

Would Teams have to buy the Raceievers or could they rent them?

AT my track, if you don't have one, they have some available for rent but you have to buy the ear buds if you don't have your own but if you rented one 3 times for 20 bones, you might as well buy it they only cost 80 bucks. I would strongly consider a series wide mandate. OR give cars that run them bonus points only problem is that doesn't help you get the local guy that doesn't plan to run the full schedule, the actual back bone of this to use the radio. I really suggest you head over to Crystal and see how they use them. the way they do it, pure magic for the show. SOD uses them too by the way.

Wood-We would very interested in a small series like you are proposing. Would be interested in testing with our outlaw car-could show you how a midpack car would perform with the templates.

I think Raceievers are a very good tool and will definitely be in contact with Mr. Flinn.

Thanks for the support Dale, your son would be a very valuable asset to the series. How about some double duty? Run both?

After 2 years of trying to get this across somebody finally listens! I hope you make this work but that don't mean I am gonna be Johnny sunshine I'll still shoot you straight. BTW how much is it to sponsor a lap at the season championship race?

Haven't gotten that far yet, but it's a great idea.

I'd like to have every Feature Lap at every race sponsored! $10 a lap with that $10 going to the lap leaders. A little extra $$$$ at the pay window certainly wouldn't hurt now would it?

I have never been a big fan of lap leader money. I would rather see the sponsors get to choose if they want the money to go to the leader or 2nd or 10th or 20th.

yeah, I want my lap money to go to the guy I pick if I pay it, like 12th on lap 12 or whatever for example.

I will give a shout out to Flat Rock, because everybody forgets about the track, it too has a scanner system for Street Stocks, late models have spotters, the system works great, lineups are easy and it saves a lot of time. With 102 cars for 3 divisions like last week the system is invaluable and once the drivers got used to it, they like it. So with Transponders, an excellent track officiating crew and scanners Flat Rock is one of the most efficient pavement tracks around and I have been to enough to know the difference. We're all for Raceivers, See Ya!

Thank You everyone for the great information on Raceievers.


Now some questions with regards to rules:

1. Can the very few rules differences within the Late Model ranks at Dixie, Owosso, and Whittemore be worked out for the benefit of all involved?

2. What are the major sticking points, if any?

I'm thinking the Late Models rules will be considerably easier to work with and compromise on, but I could be wrong.

Wood, I don't know about Owosso rules, but you guys keep talking about template cars, over half the cars at Dixie are templates, they just don't have crate motors in them. They are running their built motors. I think we are the only crate motor running on a weekly basis, and Robbie Johnson runs their off and on. Whittemore runs Dixies rules, so it only leaves what ever Owosso's rules are. A lot of the guys at Dixie were putting on templates for the weight break. (2650 verses 2875). They can run the same weight as the crate motor, but have to run a Two Barrel.( I think, well I know, the built motor has the advantage at the same weight, but its close, and all on 970s). Anyways, hope it goes, but I would advise to keep it simple at first. Receivers I guess would be alright, but no two ways or mirrors. Lets get back to good old short track racing.
You know,, when I raced in the 70s,80s, and 90s, I got the same if not more for a weekly feature than we do now at the same tracks, and pit pass were 10 bucks. Ain't that funny???
My two cents,
Mike

Are there more Template Body / Open Motor Cars at Dixie than say, Outlaw Body / Open Motor and/or Template Body / Crate Engine cars?

What if, or has anyone, brought out an Outlaw Body / Crate Engine car?

I would say more template bodied, open motor cars then template/crate cars, but more outlaw cars then both.

It seems at Owosso and Whittemore the majority of the cars are Outlaw Bodied / Open Motors
At Dixie there are more Template Bodied cars and quite a few of those with Open Motors. Is that fair to say?

You need to go out there and get ya a pit pass, shake some hands, you'll have your answers quick.

Wood, sounds like a great idea, we run a template/open motor combo at Dixie and Owosso, rule are the same.

Mark

Jim Hardy races an outlaw bodied crate motor car at Whittemore




From what I've seen I'd agree with that.

It certainly seems as though all the combinations can race together and be equally competitive at any of the three tracks. Already a step in the right direction....

Other than the body/engine combos, which seem to have already been sorted out, is there anything else in the Late Model rules at the three tracks that would need to be addressed?

What would be a suitable weight rule for the following combinations:

Outlaw Body / Open Motor
Template Body / Open Motor
Template Body / Crate Motor
Outlaw Body / Crate Motor

Also would like to know (General Guesstimate) about how many of each are there at each track?

Outlaw body DIXIE and OWOSSO 1 inch set back on engine WHITTIMORE 4 inch setback and they can run double adjustable shocks

The only template bodies Late Model we have as a regular at Owosso is John Buckner, Jr. I'm not sure what kind of motor he uses. Everyone else is Outlaw bodied

This whole idea sounds interesting. Tracks on the east side working together would be great. That is something that has not been happening for awhile. Most of the tracks on the west side and northern Indiana have the same rules with some minor tweaks. We are not called limited lates anymore as they changed rules so supers can run with us but limiteds win most of the races at Kalamazoo and we were fast in our limited at Plymouth before we got rained out last nite. I would like to make more trips over to the eastside but it seems like every track has rules so different from each other we can't run with the limiteds at very many of the tracks. I hope to see the tracks working together soon and get more cars able to travel to their track once in awhile.