Here's a pay scale for the proposed Late Model and Modified Mini Traveling Series

1. 1,000
2. 750
3. 600
4. 500
5. 450
6. 400
7. 350
8. 300
9. 290
10. 280
11. 270
12. 260
13. 250
14. 240
15. 230
16. 220
17. 210
18. 200
19. 200
20. 200
21. 200
22. 200
23. 200
24. 200


PLUS, Fast Qualifier: $200

Tow for Drivers who do not make the Feature: $100


Top 6 in Qualifying Locked in and would run a dash for cash
(Finishing order determines starting positions in Feature)

2-3 from each qualifier heat transfer
2-3 from each last chance race tranfer
Top 2 in Series Points Not locked in through heats or last chance races get a provisional (Limit 2 per season)
1 Track Provisional (such as a Past Champion)


Of course all this is in the pondering thoughts phase....

Thoughts....

Who pray tell would pay that for a 50 lap limited race more than once a season? at those race tracks? I am stopping short of laughing right now but they pay 1000 dollars for a hundred lap super race Matt.

What you would get would be more like:

600
500
350
300
250
200
175
150
125
125
125
125
125
125
125
125
125
125
125
125

Jake,

Dixie pays $3000.00 at their SLM shows.

also, ditch qualifying, do it SOD sprint style draw a nuber and line up for your heat. everybody races their way in or lock in ONLY the fast qualifier and if they choose not to race in the heat, the start shot gun on the feature. like at the World 100.

okay 3000 which is still pathetic for a 100 lap race. Sorry for being wrong but I don't see tracks in that area coming up with a fair pay off.

IMO this would be a VERY Fair purse for "Limited" Late Models and Modifieds that would participate in this potential traveling series.

This would NOT be a weekly show. This would be a "traveling show" and the series would set the purse, not the tracks.

I'm not worried about, or interested in Super Late Models and what they pay with regards to this.

Yes it is fair however, I don't see it happening. not that it couldn't I guess I am just negative. The series can set the purse but if a promoter realizes he is getting one or 2 more cars over his normal count he would have to have the right to re-nig on the purse and I would fully expect him too. remember also that by next season gas will be $5.20 a gallon.

still though, $200 to start is a lot...and $1000 to win for limited late models is almost unheard of nowadays.

That is an $9600 purse if all 40 cars show up.

Assuming every car brings 2.5 people into the pits at $25 a head ($2500) that leaves the promoter to find $7100 at the front gate to pay for the show.. or roughly 700 more adults in the stands each week then would otherwise be there.

Does that math sound about right ?

Patrick
Yeah that sounds about right, assuming a 40-car field. (THAT would be awesome)

Like i've said all along, this would NOT be a weekly show. Both series' would be a traveling series for the weekly racer.


These series' would promote the local stars already established at the tracks mentioned taking on the traveling stars from the two sister tracks.

Who wouldn't want to see Whittemore Hot Shoe, Ryan Ostrander invade Owosso to take on Mark Welch and Dave Bigos. Plus, Dixie invaders, Ed Doutre Jr. and young Blake Childers, plus so many more.

The same theory could be applied to the Modifieds. Nine-Time Defending Track Champion, Bill Luckhurst looks to defend his "Backyard" against the likes of crafty veterans, Buck Harsen, Todd Matheson, and Johnny Belott. Plus the young lions, Jon Beach, Travis Eddy, Nick Clemens and more....

All of the above going head to head in a thrilling 10-race series.

Ok let's not make the purse so top heavy, how's this for both divisions?
1. 800
2. 600
3. 550
4. 500
5. 450
6. 400
7. 350
8. 300
9. 290
10. 280
11. 270
12. 260
13. 250
14. 240
15. 230
16. 220
17. 210
18. 200
19. 200
20. 200
21. 200
22. 200
23. 200
24. 200

Not everyone is going to win every night, my concern would be my drivers who finish 5th on back....I'd want my core base of drivers to want to and be able to afford to come to all of the events.

Again thoughts....

Well lets see the concept is fair enough Matt but, I still think you wouldn't be able to get 200 dollars start money or should request it. why don't you pull for say 20 bucks more than the normal start money for the track. That's a cookie you could sell. Don't forget that when you jack up a purse the promoter typically takes it from the back gate. The Bomber guys will still be running for 100 bucks but you KNOW the pit gate price is going up for a show like that. That bro don't help the local racer it hurts him.

Its an every other week show someplace.. and the 700 fans gotta come from someplace.

Most likely, they will come from other tracks that night.. I don't think your going to produce 700 new spectators

AND -- the "cost" structure doesn't even begin to take into count the promotion costs.. an event like this will require several thousand dollars in advertising.. which will change the number of fans needed from 700 to something like 1100.

1100 above and beyond what is there on a normal payout night..

Here is another thing to think about, remember years ago we both worked for Dave and Ellen Scrivo when they revived the "Dixie Classic" what did that pay to win? I think it was 2 grand. we didn't draw but a handful of cars from other tracks. and that was when 2000 bucks would buy you 2000 gallons of regular gas. sure you could chalk it up to the old Dixie track being too tough ( I love the original track) but either way, solid pay out, they didn't come. These guys want to run the tracks you are talking about anyways, yes. The promoters want them to be there ,yes but NOBODY can afford it. These are sportsman division race cars no matter how you slice the pie. if you try and sell it it has to be atractive to both sides. AND you gotta bring the fans with you. IF you can secure solid sponsorship from a company like say Advance Auto parts and pay a legit points fund maybe you have a go but just taking whats there and making more out of it, everbody is already wanting to do that. you have the beginning of an angle. put in your time do your homework, I think it could be made to work.

In another message thread about this same subject, it was said:



Actually, they would also be giving up the nights when the Mods are gone to Owosso to race.

I think this should be geared more towards the Late Models. Maybe this could be the next phase with the Late Models, to actually turn them into a traveling show rather than a weekly show. The Modifieds aren't yet ready to become a traveling-only show. However, their costs should somehow be controlled to help prevent them from going in that direction. It's getting to where the Modifieds need a bigger purse and the tracks can barely afford the existing purse.

-Maurice

I could not agree more. I also really question wethere LLM will really pull at the front gate. They arent the most attractive series.

That why these traveling series should race more than 3 tracks, A/C is only 12 milies from Dixe. You take one show Whittemore and one from Owosso and A/C already runs 970's.

O.k. so if the sanction sets the purse, who sets the gate? If the sanction sets the gate, what is it to get in to one of these shows? also if the Sanction has a Mod race at one track and a Late model race at another on the same night who is in charge of each race? who does the tech also? would you be willing to risk guys from other tracks getting homered by good old boy local officials?

It wouldn't actually be too bad to schedule the Owosso events around Whittemore's schedule since Whittemore alternates Mods and LLM's. Especially if both tracks continue to do what they are doing with the rest of this season, next year and have their schedules synced up. Mods at one track while LLM's at the other and vice versa.

Of course, if mother nature messed up one of your traveling shows it could be tough to reschedule it. Another possible problem is Whittemore doesn't, for the most part, bring outside shows into their track.

Dixie would be easy enough to fit in on Fridays. IF you included another track on Saturdays it would get tough because then guys would have to possibly give up nights at Whittemore or Owosso or the tracks would have to give up the class for the night to help the series. Your best option would be for Fridays Dixie has mods off or possibly a Sunday show someplace to make things work the best for all the tracks involved.

!. $1,000.00
2. $750.00
3. $500.00
4th to 24th $150.00
B main $150

Most teams LLM at Whittemore have and average of 4 to 5 members in the pits. Raise the pit pass to $30.00 special nite event. I guess how a person could look at this is that these would be events that people would want to be a part of. People should want to be a part of this instead of asking whats in it for them. All i can post is that this is somehting that would be great to get off the ground, Racing a every other week schedule is great. And competing in a series that offer some of Mid Michigans best racers would be something that i would pay extra to be a part of.

Matt, if you take the 1000.00 off the top it looks like the payout at AC for years in LLMs before Dr. Bob took over HMMMMM, you could break even even make a few bucks back then, we were getting 30+ LLMs back then remember?

yep, Dad used to take his car to Auto City for start money only. we never even changed the gear, we only cared about running good at Dixie.

Why not the first year use the tracks existing payouts. See if their is a response from racers, Set up your own system for scoring points. That way a track and their racers that race their weekly wouldnt lose a night from their season. If you had two divisions the Mods and LLM. 9 week Schedules might be to much to fast for yourself. The first year if you use Dixie Owosso and Whittemore use six nights for each class, and schedule one night in case of a rain out that way people could still race their home tracks.

Doesn't Spartan pay $750 to win on a regular nite for supers? Don't know how they pay through the field though?!! They usually run 35 to 40 laps.

I think 1,000 to win and 200 to start is a bit aggressive and a hard pill for promoters to swallow. They are having a tough time paying what they currently payout.

The other problem is its hard to headline a show with Mod's and expect to pull a good front gate. Your going to attract fans but its not going to be the numbers you would need to pay the purse your proposing. And our surely not going to raise th front gate for a Mod special and expect the fans to pay it if you do not have Supers on the card.

I hate saying this, but Supers are the premier headliners and outside of circus acts ( bus races, etc. ) its hard to take a lower division and headline a nights event and call it a special.

I still like the idea but think the purse needs to be reconsidered to reduce costs for the promoters and to get their buy in.

JMHO,

Chris

It would be cool to see Modifieds and Limiteds running together.

I know the pay is somewhat aggressive, but is needed in order for Whittemore drivers to travel to Owosso and Dixie, Owosso guys to go up to Whittemore, etc., etc.

I think a "Winners Circle" program and a solid points fund is needed in any prospective traveling series to get the teams to go to the events in the first place. Contingencies help, but a good purse is needed first and foremost.

Like I said before, not everyone is going to win every night, i'd be more concerned for my drivers from 5th or so on back that keep coming and supporting this venture.

Of course a decent First Place Prize Money is good as well, but we don't need teams going broke to attend every event.

Also, is 10 races too much, too little, or just right?

No more than 12 is my thought and no less than 6 or 7 for sure. That's why I came up with 10, just about in the middle.

After thinking about it, I feel 10 races is just about perfect.

3 races at each track (Dixie, Owosso, and Whittemore) with the 10th race (Season Championships) rotated amongst the three tracks each season.

For 2009, my personal choice would be Owosso for the inaugural twin 100-lap Season Championships!
1. It's my home track. 2. Owosso would be the "Unofficial" home base of the series.

Thoughts....

Question 1: In this area, When was the latest outlaw limited car built and how much did it cost?

Question 2: In this area, When was the last brand new 2 barrell/limited motor built and how much did it cost? What are the horsepower/torque numbers?

Question 3: In this area, How do the current drivers/owners of outlaw limited late models feel about tires? Do you like the 970 or would you like to race on a racing slick like a 1080?

I am just asking for information only. Alot of the current limited late models are getting old and will be needing updating or an investment to freshen this equipment(engine/chassis/suspension/etc)

Terry
I can't answer Questions 1 or 2 because I don't own a Late Model.

3. I'd leave them on 970s (Both Divisions) all three tracks run the same tire and I can't justify making teams buy a brand new set of tires just to run the series and besides the drivers at these tracks already have 970s at their disposal and a two-tire rule would be in effect to where they can only buy 2 tires!


Now that i'm reading your post, maybe this wasn't for me!

I was just adding to the information gathering about the limited late models. I think you would get more nights out of a 1080 racing slick than a 970 treaded tire.

I get 2 nights out of our hoosier 3035/3045, running in the top 5, and I give them to a fellow competitor and he gets 2 nights out of them also. I know talking to the front runners on 970, you need atleast 2 tires, but 4 are great to run in the top 3 in a limited.

Ostrander won the last feature on 3 night old 970 tires at Whittemore. I am unsure of what everybody else is getting.

Terry, Have you ever run the crate car on 970's? If yes how was it? and if no what would your opinion be on the results?
Thanks

I don't get the 2 tire a night rule, the idea is nice but it's way off. if you want 4 new ones you just have your buddy that's going to Dixie Friday buy you 4. or you go to the Hoosier seller is it still Dudley tire works? and buy 4 tires. the 2 tire limit is pointless. Since I race in Maryland not Michigan I'll tell you what I would do under your rule, buy 4 tires the week before and soak the crap out of them. so now I suppose you need to create an impound or require guys buy 4 tires at the track right? don't make guys buy only 2 tires you are inviting questions about where them other tires came from. . Especially if somebody wins on four 3 night old tires, then you know they're soaked. Sorry if anybody is mad at me I am not calling anybody a tire soaking cheater except myself. LOL. However don't force anybody to buy tires half your cars will be gone then too, so just man up and let them run what they brung. I hate tire buying limits they don't make sense and seldom work unless you MAKE somebody buy 4 new ones every show otherwise a tire soaker like me has an edge over an honest guy.

Honestly, anyone who soaks their tires should be suspended a MINIMUM of 1 Year the first offense and if they're stupid enough to do it again, a lifetime ban would be in order. I'd also call for this to go across the board, not only in this series, but at the three hosts tracks as well!

I'm thinking with a potential Tech Team beginning with Dan Bailey and Maurice Randell at the top would make potential "cheaters" think twice about trying anything outside the rulebook.

I wouldn't have a problem with teams "Thinking outside the box" in terms of gaining that little bit of an edge, as long as they are within the rulebook in doing so.

The potential for a common rulebook for all three tracks that would be utiilized by the new series would, in my mind, be a win-win for all! A full schedule of races could be made for any Late Model or Modified team.

10 series events and as many local shows as possible with three choices to race at (One on Fridays and Two on Saturdays who happen to alternate the two divisions) and not have to change a thing.

Lifetime suspension, why? Tire soak makes tires last longer and saves racers money for new tires. It's against the rules but the rules are written for the big teams not the little ones. I am just giving you a little bit of a hard time, being the Promoter is tough you'll have stuff like that to deal with...... but I see holes in your tire rule and if I see something what makes you think other guys won't see them too. I would just go with the spec tire and call it good instead of a 2 tire limit.

All Three Tracks have a No Soaking Policy and the series would not only honor that, but (and with the cooperation of the three tracks) would take that policy a step further with the One-Year Ban for the first offense and the Lifetime Ban should they try it a second time.

I have practice/tire test at owosso a few years ago with the 970. Even a crate motor car can spin the rear tires. For economics, a 10" racing racing slick, harder compound (1080) would be better than a 970 treaded tire for longevity. Two tire rule will work with a 10" racing slick, look at Superpro and Uspro. I have had conversations with current limited late model drivers from this area and they say 4 new 970 a night to win or run in the top 3.

The rule exists but it is a lousy rule to benefit the big teams and the tire sellers . I seriously have no idea why soak is illegal on an asphalt track where ground contamination isn't an issue. But hey it's your ballgame. What is you're reason for being against it? because somebody told you it's bad? getting a little off topic. sorry. but you could find yourself in a similar argument with somebody.

You might want to look again for Whittemore's tire soaking policy.



I think the point of the 970 is that they only have limited traction, more tire means more motor can get put to the ground and have an advantage. Everyone can prevent spinning the tires, it's your right foot and throttle control. I don't know about LLM's but mods can get multiple competitive nights out of 970's and the two tire deal works for USA mods.

My thought is to use the USA Modifieds Series Two (2) Tire rule with slight modifications for both divisions.

If the Late Model guys want to put in a big motor in their cars, go for it! The Hoosier 970s and the 2-bbl carb (for starters) will equalize everyone anyways so it would be pointless to go out and spend a bunch of money on a high dollar motor that you can't use to its full potential.

Terry
I wouldn't make the Late Models go buy the new rims and new tires needed to run the 10-inch tires. All three tracks run Hoosier 970s and utilizing the USA Modifieds Two (2) Tire Rule, it would definitely save the drivers a ton of money over the course of the season.

Plus the fact that they don't have to change anything to run the series or the three tracks on a weekly basis is the main idea behind this whole concept.

Wood "Honestly, anyone who soaks their tires should be suspended a MINIMUM of 1 Year the first offense and if they're stupid enough to do it again, a lifetime ban would be in order. I'd also call for this to go across the board, not only in this series, but at the three hosts tracks as well!"

Whittemore allows tire soaking!

Then obviously this would be one of the compromises that would have to be ironed out between the three facilities. I was mistaken, I thought all tracks in the state banned tire soaking.

No 100% way of proving a tire is soaked. If there was, we wouldn't allow it. We don't advocate that racers soak, but we couldn't catch it, so we took that rule out of our book.

Andy

Your right Andy. There is only one test that gives conclusive proof that a tire is soaked and to my knowledge ARCA and NASCAR are the only two I know of that use the test.

A small piece of the tire is cut out and sent to a lab where it is analyzed using some very expensive and sophisticated machines. The cost is outrageous for each test. It is basically a forensics test which is identical to the ones used for arson investigations. It tests for remnants of chemicals.

I personally hate soaking and wished it would have never been invented. Its hazardous and some of these chemicals can do a whole lot of damage to an individual ( cancer, leukemias, etc. ) .

Chris

Thanks for the information.

What else (along these lines) would be a sticking point (Other than rules, that's in one of the other threads) between the three tracks that would take some compromise?

It seems as though the biggest hurdles will be getting the three tracks to compromise on are:

1. Late Models Rules (Very little to compromise on)
2. Modifieds Rules (A little bit more to work on, but still doable)
3. Scheduling (Again shouldn't be too much, a proposed Schedule is already done)

Is there anything else i'm missing besides the obvious (Sponsors, etc.)

Just bringing this back to the top.

#1 and #2 are being discussed at length in other threads and #3 would be a priority once 1 and 2 are established and as mentioned above, a proposed schedule is already done.

So back to the last question:

Is there anything else i'm missing?
Besides the obvious of course (Sponsors, Initial Investment, etc.)