The whole purpose of the series of "Pondering Thoughts" is very simple:

Can everything we've all discussed over the last few days work with the Financial Backing needed to get this whole concept off the ground?


The USPRO Cup Series (Now the ASA Late Model Series) was started on this very message board, while i'm not saying that's what's going to happen here, this is an idea i've been working on lately and i'm looking for input.

Again I DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHY IT WON'T WORK!!!!

I want to know HOW WE CAN MAKE THIS WORK????

Find the financial backer and it WILL work. if you don't you have nothing but a nice idea. do you follow me? you have a plan propose it to the promoters, then the sponsors and lastly the drivers. If you show them the money, they'll be there and you should be able to count on 20 to 25 cars a night per division.

If you want something like this to work, you must have alot of help for the travel. Both for the teams, and your officials. People want to race. That is why they have the car in the first place. However, alot of them do not want to spend $100.00 plus per night on gas to travel to race. Also, alot of teams do not like to travel to race even if money is not the issue. They like to go to their home track, see family and friends, and have fun. Take that away, and they will go to Silver Lake for the weekend or something.

Most people that like to travel, are already doing that.

Fans.

Most race fans will travel to see the World of Outlaws, Hooters Pro Cup, ASA, ARCA, SOD, and the likes. I just do not see many travelling to see limited lates, or modifieds. So, how do the promoters pay for the extra purse? Well, per your post, if the financial backing is there, this is a mute point

All in all, everything keeps coming back to money

If the drivers are having fun racing, not losing more money, and being treated well, it can work.

There's only 2 people that have any knowledge needed to answer that question, you and Ron Varney. Ron knows what investment you need to make to build a series from the ground up, and you know whether or not you can afford that investment. The rest of us are just the peanut gallery.

I know exactly what it cost Ron to start USPRO and run it the first year and while I cannot reveal the costs, a Brinks truck would have been a nice benefit back then.

It took piles of money.

Chris

You're Right Chris, something this big would take a lot of financial backing to get off the ground.

But i'd be willing to do it if I had investors. I have the concept, the idea, and support from a wide range of important people, just need an Investor or Four to bring this into reality.

Bottom Line, i'd like to try and make this work!


Also, I think i've come up with a name for the two divisions and the series as a whole:
Short Track Auto Racing Series (S.T.A.R.S.)

The Two Divisions would be known as:
S.T.A.R.S. Late Models
S.T.A.R.S. Modifieds


The name (S.T.A.R.S.) hasn't been used since Boundless Motorsports bought the old S.T.A.R.S. Dirt Late Model Racing Series in 2003, changed the name to the XTreme Dirt Late Model Series. Today we know this series as the World of Outlaws Late Model Series

Boundless Motorsports then became what we know today as the World Racing Group, who own the World of Outlaws Sprints, United Midwestern Promoters (U.M.P.) and just about every other major Dirt Touring Series in the country.

you might want to make sure that name isn't copyrighted.

Of Course.
I've been in contact with the management of World Racing Group on this very thing.

just makin' sure, a law suit would be a pretty bad way to star a business I figure.

Matt,

I guess the bottom line is what is the total purse going to be?

That would be a good place to start if you want promoters, drivers and fans to get on board.

The total to get the show would determine the amount of a pit pass, grandstand prices etc.

Here's the shortened version of what i've come up with so far.

The purse has been adjusted twice based on concerns, advice, and other issues brought up by our members here on MSTRC as well as through Private Messages and E-Mails.

The Purse would be identical for both divisions

Feature Purse (STARS Late Models and STARS Modifieds)
1. 800
2. 600
3. 500
4. 450
5. 400
6. 375
7. 350
8. 325
9. 300
10. 280
11. 260
12. 240
13. 220
14. 200
15. 200
16. 200
17. 200
18. 200
19. 200
20. 200
21. 200
22. 200
23. 200
24. 200

Fast Qualifier: $200
Non-Qualifiers: $100

$7,500 TOTAL (Minus Non-Qualifiers)
X 2 = $15,000 TOTAL PURSE (Again Minus Non-Qualifiers)

There are a few more than that Gavin. I have been there, done that, and thought about doing it again. I just like my free time too much anymore. I know a few other lurkers on this board that have done it as well. Plus a few that have the inside knowledge. I am surprised a few of them have not spoke up. Well, not real surprised I guess.

I very much appreciate your input Duane and i'll be in contact with you soon.

Just a informal survey, what drivers/teams (Late Models and Modifieds) (Plus other drivers looking to move up) would be interested in this type of a series?

No disrespect intended to you or others that have done it, Duane. It's just that I think we all know where Matt is headed with this, and the first question to ask is "can I afford it?" It takes a ton of money to get this type of thing off the ground as I'm sure you know. The most recent big time success story in this catagory is the USPRO/ASALM series, that's why I mentioned Ron specifically...

I mean running the numbers from this proposal it seems tough to me without some out of pocket expenses. For instance the $1000 for perfect attendence. What if 20guys do it? Not trying to bad mouth anyone but I can't think of many people that can foot a $20k bill at the end of the season should the money not be raised by the series throughout the season. What if 40guys do it?? There's a pretty big list of drivers that Matt is talking about here.

Not trying to be negative, just pointing out some risks that I see, and with those questions unanswered it makes this type of proposal a little tough to swallow.

Just a question... would it be planned for both series to run on the same night each week? And what if you ran them both together? I know the Late Model and Modified times at Owosso are comparable. It would cut the purse in half and possibly double the car counts. How much difference is there between Late Models and Modifieds at Whittemore and Dixie?

Gavin, no offence taken. If I came across that way, it sure was not meant to. I do not get offended too easy. I usually do not speak freely on message boards, but what the heck, I have nothing to protect anymore, LOL

I am not trying to sound like a stick in the mud to Wood or anything. Just want him to be careful is all. I have seen some wanna-be promoters lose everything they owned trying to make something work is all. Ya know? OK, disclaimer time, LOL. Not calling Wood a wanna-be. Just trying to make my concern noted.

Wood is doing it the right way so far. Gathering info, and getting ideas. He knows most of us has his back, and will help where we can.

See this is where I agree with you Gavin, Matt has a nice racing format but I don't see how he is even gonna pay his staff, much less make any money for himself. then there is that winners circle program on top of a points which still isn't paid for, which could be great or bury him. I talked to Dad on the phone yesterday and this topic came up Dad said this Hollywood is pretty slick, don't be surprised if he can pull this off. So there you go Wood the Ironman vote of confidence. But I say this again and again get the money, and for the winners circle program why don't you make it say, 200 bucks that's a whole extra nights start money, not too shabby.

I figured we were on the same page... but I wanted to make sure.

Without trying to start any controversy, what your all saying right now, was all I was trying to say a few days ago.

Where is all the money going to come from to pull something llike this off???

Look at My posts Ed I haven't been Johnny Sunshine either. I have nothing better to do than bench race. I've known this guy since we were kids, he wants to figure somethin out, I can help with the racing part, the money is his problem.

An Initial Investment (Interested parties have already been in contact) and ensuing sponsorship (Again interested parties have been in contact), but with this being discussed in the middle of this season, most are taking a "wait and see" approach at least until the end of this season.

As stated previously, other than the financial obligations, the biggest hurdle will be getting all three tracks to work together and compromise with regards to the rulebook and scheduling.

I can safely say that at least one track is 100% on board!

Just bringing this back to the top.

More Questions.

1. For a typical race day, what does it cost a Late Model and a Modified Team to get to one of the three tracks? Closest track first?

2. What are the tire rules at each track? I know every track runs Hoosier 970s, but is there a "tire-rule" in affect?

Keep in mind this is just tip of the iceberg, but what I guess I consider the Day expenses.

$65.00 in fuel for hauler
$60.00 pit passes for me and driver
$60.00 fuel for racecar

Total - $185.00

Filling the cooler don't count I guess

Basicly I run my program where I hope to cover my "daily expense" at the pay window. I never plan to get tires, car parts, or maintence(oil,filters,...) ever covered by anyone but me. That makes for an expensive hobby.

Ray

Please don't forget about my Pet Peeve, which is the so called 'Registration Fee' and 'Driver's Fee' to race. Also, remember about the slab fee. I have more than $275 in registration and slab fees this year, just to race Sportsman. That is on top of everything else Ray has listed.

RZ

No Slab Fees, wouldn't race at just one track.

There would have to be a Registration Fee, but not so out there that it would make a team think twice about wanting to run with the series.

There would be things like "early-bird" registration where a team could register for the season and reserve a number by a certain date and get a nice break for doing so.

Something else i'm thinking about is all 2008 Track Champions from the three tracks would get free registration and first crack at number selection before the start of "early-bird" registration. They would get a two-week time frame to get their registration and number selection in before the start of "Early-bird"

This would take place let's say between January 1-15.

So going by points as of right now:
Late Models
Dixie: 73 Ed Doutre III
Owosso: 29 Dave Bigos
Whittemore: 0 Ryan Ostrander

Modifieds
Dixie: 11 Chuck Silva
Owosso: 33 Bill Luckhurst
Whittemore: 7 Todd Matheson

The six teams mentioned above would get first crack at numbers and their 2009 Registration would be covered. (They would still have to fill it out though)

Once that two-week time frame is complete, then Registration and Numbers would be open to the public on a first come, first serve basis up until a set time (Hence Early-Bird Registration) This would take place let's say from January 16-March 1.

Then once the "Early-Bird" is done, then it would just be regular Registration and whatever numbers are left from March 2-on.

Plus I would probably have One-Day Registration for teams who only race once or twice at their home track and don't travel with the series.

How does all of the above sound?

I think this is a great idea as it would help round out the skills of the various drivers without the enormous expense of running a super late model. In 2005, I helped run a modified at Mansfield, in central Ohio. At the end of the year, Mansfield sponsored a $ 15,000 to win event, paying $ 5,000 for second, with a good payout through the field. Mansfield expected a lot of cars from all over the country. As I recall, the furthest car was from lower Indiana, and the total car count was in the mid-forties. We had been drawing well over 20 cars every week, so the $ 15,000 drew 20 extra cars. Most of those cars were from Sandusky, Lorain, and Midvale speedway-less than two hours away. The event did not draw a large gate for the promoter, and the event was cancelled for the next year. I am concerned that the various tracks will draw a gate that will handle $ 7500 purse, fees, and advertising expenses.

My second concern is car count. USPRO only drew 9 cars to their Mansfield event. I read the results from Baer Field an it appears that only 14 cars started the feature. I am not sure that the USPRO program should be looked at as a example of success. I also am concerned that ASA is not drawing enough cars--21 at Salem???

I am curious as to what amount of sponsorship you need per event to make this program work.

When you are ready to start writing rules, I would love to show you a video which shows a lot of products undergoing sled tests and this will help you write effective rules to save your drivers money while helping insure their safety in an incident.

The seat guy

Thanks for the support Seat Guy

This is still in the VERY EARLY planning stages and as i've said all along, an initial investment would be required before any of this could become a reality.

Rules are being discussed in other threads and I would say that is going really well. This is a long process and we're only on the ground floor.

As I travel arround, look at the Olympics, look at athletic events, I start to wonder if the search for a series sponsor needs to go outside the automotive area. The United States has gone from a country producing big, bulky cast iron and steel stuff to a country producing hi-tech, nifty electronics-Ipods, Iphones, etc. Perhaps a search committee could be formed, or an commission-only agent hired to explore those opportunities.

I hope you realize that my intent is to help you. The success of sprint cars and dirt late models is the standardization of rules. When I raced an ASA car in the early 1980's, those rules were standard at all our local (northern Ohio) tracks. I was reading the CRA rules several years ago and they seemed to have a good idea--roller cam, add 50 lbs--headers, add 50 lbs....etc. So, if you have competitors come from a track that, for some reason, bans aluminum heads, you require a weight adjustment. Make the body rules standard, make the safety rules standard, and open the rest.

Am I incorrect in my observation that the recent drop in ASA car counts has something to do with a proposed rule change???? Am I not correct that there are a lot of modifieds in peoples garages (as opposed to pits) as the result of a Ford suspension ban??

The seat guy

Seat Guy
Sponsorship is the biggest key to making all of this a reality! It's the #1 most important item!
Standardization of the rulebook for both divisions at the three tracks is #1A....

Once those two are finalized, the rest becomes a little easier, if those don't happen, this whole concept goes no farther than an idea discussed on a message board.


As for anything related to the ASA Late Model Series, I can't answer any questions pertaining to that association since i'm no longer affiliated with them. You'd have to ask the "Higher-Ups" within the organization for an explanation on anything pertaining to them.

Wow, $15K purse each show,, ouch for the promoter who bites this apple. I bet Hollywood will have to rent the tracks to run these shows. I dont know any promoter out there that can put that purse up and stand a chance. It is simple to do the math and see what happens with $15K purses. Looks like Ron discussed everything but $$ with Wood.

Todd
I never said this would be an easy sell. There's a ton of compromise and work to be done for this to become a reality.

While the purse would certainly seem high (It is two divisions after all), it's very do able when the average purse for those two divisions combined at the three tracks on a weekly basis is roughly $8,000 ($4,000 per division) for 20-car fields.

The S.T.A.R.S. purses would be right around $15,000 based on 24-car fields. I suppose if we dropped positions 21-24 and started just 20 cars per feature, then the total purse drops to around $13,000.

Promotion is the key, no question about it.

So..... you want the guy with the old car and no money for tires to pay another registration fee to race at their home track? For 3 races? I would stay home. I know that those guys aren't who you are after, you want the best of the best but the whole damn world isn't ASA. You are gonna need some field fillers. AKA the guy with the old car and no money for tires and zero chance to win.

Jake
ASA is not, nor has ever been mentioned in this whole process. Not sure where you got that from. This would not replace ASALMS or any other series for that matter. This is an entirely new idea that is literally laying down a foundation.

There's thoughts of also having a special "One-Track Registration" for teams who only race a couple of times and only at their home track. Certainly not a huge amount that would make or break a teams decision to come race.

As a race fan, what would you suggest to bring the teams on limited budgets to a S.T.A.R.S. race? Anything with the word "Free" in it, simply won't work!

Remember Jake, we're literally on the ground floor with this entire deal. Instead of saying everyone is going to stay home, how about what can we do to bring those teams with limited budgets out, even if it were to be for a race or two!

As stated earlier, there are no wrong answers right now. This is possibly the start of something special.

I race a car, and I have been a small budget racer from well forever just like my Dad was. I just can't see paying another hundred bucks or more to run 3 races that I would normally get to run for no additional charge. sure most guys will want to be there but it isn't necesarily in the best interest of everybody thats 4 more pit passes or a new tire. I guess I am just not as addicted as most racers. I have no idea what is a good answer. why don't you ask my old man, he still has a limited been parked 8 years but he has it. I am gonna be taking all the good pieces off it for my next dirt car though. You want to know what the low buck late model guy thinks, ask the man himself, I'll PM you his number if you want. Not trying to be a jerk. I bet lots of guys not just low dollar guys would be hot about that.

A $100 is insane for Three (3) races.

$100 for the entire 10-race series is a bit on the high side, but may be necessary and that would only be AFTER "Early-Bird" registration for all 10 races. (I'd say a good "early-bird" registration would be $50?)

I feel $10 per race (Which is what Registration would amount too) is more than fair for everyone.

So a "One-Track S.T.A.R.S." registration fee would be say, $25?

Obviously if a team comes in for one show, then the "One-Time Registration" would be $10.

There wouldn't be any addition "Entry Fee" cost since Registration would already be paid for.

Bottom line is there needs to be "some" money coming into the series. We can't all do this for free.

I'd say that all of the above is more than fair....

Much better than I was thinking. I'd show up for that, probably b!tch a little but I'd be there.

See, compromise is always a good thing (Within reason of course)

So it looks as though the fees talked about for Registration are agreed upon.

The next issue would be numbers. My thoughts are first come / first serve with consideration given to the 2008 Track Champions, (Since they would be the first in line)

In the case of duplicate numbers, do we add letters or no duplicate numbers?

My thoughts are to allow letters next to the numbers.

Example,
There are three distinct #12s in the area.
Dan Leeck-Dixie, Tom Hoose-Owosso, and Cale Wiltse-Whittemore

Who gets the number first without having to attach a letter? The first one who registers?


Also there are three #21s at Owosso alone.
Joe Cantu, Steve Hoose, and Mike Samson. Plus you have Robbie Johnson who frequents both Dixie and Whittemore.

Who gets the number first? Again, is it the first one who registers?


I can see where not allowing duplicate numbers could get pretty crazy in a hurry, so I vote for allowing letters next to the numbers and who gets the number first is based off of registration, who gets theres in first gets the number.

Another thought is that on the Registration Form, there would be a designation for the first three numbers you'd want. For example if Joe Cantu registers, he would send in his first three choices for number.

1. 21
2. 21c
3. 21j

If he's the first one requesting #21, it's his. If say, Robbie Johnson sent his in first, then Joe's second choice would be his number in S.T.A.R.S. (21c)

Make sense?

Thoughts....

Simplify it. Everybody with duplicate numbers gets a letter. It's not a big deal for all three 12's to get a letter added. Don't worry about who registers first.

To the fans, they are each driving #12. To the scorers, they have letters added.

-Maurice

in a three track challenge you'll have to have duplicate numbers. maybe have a banquet type party this winter to kick things off at say Ted and Terry Johnson's Bus Stop Inn, and settle who gets the number with a dice game or something. or go first come first serve. series regulars get priority over one track guys, the 1 track guy gets some tape and puts on an X when its a STARS night.

Very Good Point.

To the fans it's the white 12, the blue 12, the purple 12, etc.... How many fans actually notice the letter next to the number>

Wood,

Spartan has that issue right now, three 6's in the mods.

Myself, Dan Logan and Perry Davenport.

Solution has been to make us the 6S, 6D and the 6L.

All bases covered, scoring done with transponder so that isn't an issue, and the letter eliminates any confusion with lineups, etc.

have a good day,

schinde

Another good point.

This issue was easier than I thought. I wish others were this easy.

So if there is more than one team with the same number, they ALL add a letter.
Agreed????

Works for me.

Looks like this is one thread we can wrap up and call it good....

Thanks to everyone who has offered insight and suggestions with regards to this particular thread.

We're building something special here....

Looking back through this thread, we've discussed Registration and Car Numbers as the two big issues and it seems we've come to an agreement on both.

Plus, we know that an Initial Investment as well as the cooperation amongst the three tracks are the two biggest keys to getting this off the ground.

If there are no objections, I think we can close this one down.

We can leave this open for another day or so and if there's nothing else with regards to the matters above, then we can go ahead and lock this one away.

Greg

This One Is Closed....