I just happen to be on Short Track Thunder and was amazed at the car count at Crystal on Saturday. 128 cars in the pits, thats over twice as many as Spartan?

LM- 29 cars *******WOW

IMCA Modified- 41 cars *******WOW

Pro Stock- 16 cars

Pro Truck- 9 trucks

Street Stock- 22 cars

Flinn Stock- 11 cars

Was this a regular night? What are they doing that the Asphalt tracks aren't?





Spartans count from 8/8/08 59 Cars in the Pits

LM-12

Mod-14

Pure-6

Sportsman-8

Ponies-19

Is it the pay?Are the drivers treated better? How can they seem to get that many more cars?

Kalamzoos car count for Saturday 105 cars in the pits
LM-36

Mods-25

Sportsmans-21

Pures-23
That wasn't that bad, must just be Spartan??
Why is this so much different then what Spartans numbers are? HMMMM......

Owosso is drawing similar numbers to Spartan.

15 Modifieds

13 Street Stocks

22 Pure Stocks

12 Mini-Stocks

That's 62 cars. I think it is just how things are on this side of the state for Ashphalt tracks.

That is a pretty low number for Pro Stocks at Crystal they usually have more than 20 of those. overall car count was a little low for crystal, this time of year they are usually over 140. and yeah, that is a regular show. But 128 ain't too bad!!!!

I posted the Crystal count. Pro Stocks are a little down, Flinn Stocks also, I thought there would be atleast 20 this year consistantly. Actually LM was down a little, there was a 4 or 5 week span that was pushing 40. 40 Mods is about the normal, had a D-main for those. Streeters have picked up the past month, thats good to see. Trucks are down from 2006 when there was 16-18 weekly, most we had one night was 11 or 12.

I can tell you part of the reason that K zoo has a high car count.......Thats cause they treat there drivers like there somebody, I cant really explain how they do that but they do and that to me is important. little things make a big difference to drivers at least this one, and thats one reason I go back to that track time and time again even though I get beat and sent home with my tail tucked...and one more of many little reasons is the high quality field of drivers over there I go there for 2 years now and never come home with a recked car...."OH NO" I know I shouldnt have said that.... knock on wood..lol

Don't change the rules!
Mandatory raceivers!
The wisdom of Ron Flinn = good car count in a bad economy!

yup. the stands were full Saturday night. the racing was great. i can hardly wait for Labor Day weekend and the outlaw late models! YIPPIE!

One thing I would like to see is.... On asphalt what are the tracks averaging per class. For example at owosso this week they averaged 15.5. Also same comparisons for dirt

Seems that would be a good way to compare as each track may run a diff number of classes

We have been in business for 5 weeks. Im pleased with our progress but not satisfied.

I would like you to take this poll again after 3 years.

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff you guys are doing much better and you have only had it for 5 weeks, just imagine if you guys did have it all this year. I wouldn't have had run Spartan and Springport as much, I would have rather ran at Owosso but I guess we'll have to wait to next season to run a full season back at the BIG O.

YES you guys are doing a great job i agree take this poll in 3 years every weekend she gets closer to her glory days keep it up

Really that's what I was getting to. 5 weeks and triple the car count. I know that rate could never continue. But you guys are on the right track

Flatrock, Late models 25, Street stocks 49, Figure eights 17,

Toledo, Sportsman 19, Factory stocks 25, Figure eights 13,

Everyone is too focused on "today".

I had a talk with Ron Flinn a few years ago when his crowd was down. I was trying to help him come up with a gimmick or somthing to get a few more people in to a SOD show. He just kinda shrugged his shoulders, and said that it goes is cycles. The pavement will have the crowds for a few years, then it rolls over to dirt. He said it has been going back and forth for as long as he can remember. This just happens to be a time when people are attending his track.

Not all dirt tracks are doing well. Not all pavement tracks are doing poorly. I have always said, a racer will race where he is treated well. Give them honest pay, and treat them well, fair, and evenly, and they will come. I think Crystal is good at this, as is Kalamazoo. I also think Berlin does a great job as well, but the bigger tracks are down the last few years due to cost.

You also have to look at the cost of the cars. The higher divisions cost more on the pavement. Pavement sprints cost more than dirt sprints. Pavement lates cost more than dirt lates. Heck, we have pretty much been running the same four tires all summer, and we still ran top five at Crystal on Saturday.

I have been to alot of race tracks in Michigan over the last few years. Been in every tower, and seen first hand how they operate. There are reasons why the tracks that are doing well, are doing well, and reasons why the struggling tracks, are struggling. Like I said, give em honest pay, and treat them well, they will come. (treating them well is more than being nice )

Oh ya, throw in a tough economy, and well, you know.....

I think racing dirt is much more affordable (at least in the mods and most all divisions I think). The Imca claim is great for keeping cost down unlike pavement mods which allow virtually anything. Even Nascar engines if you can afford them. (Yeah yeah you can only get so much to the ground but it still helps when some fields are less then .5 apart.) Every year I raced asphalt mods the cost goes up and up just in the past 9 years, as in our class as there is no limit on what you can run. That is why I have been out for most of the season cuz I cant afford the power plant and light weight parts needed to keep up and I can’t afford new tires every week to give me that edge.

I think enforcing rules is important. I have been though more tech the past two nights on dirt then I have in the past few years on pavement. For example its been over 5 years anyone has ever checked my tread width or wheelbase. The only body panel anyone has ever measured is the spoiler in the past years and no one has ever measured or checked for any type of frame or spindle modification, or ever check for OEM suspension location. When you know the playing field is even its more appealing. When you know you struggle to compete because of $ that sucks. What can or do you do then? (Quit? Move down a division? Save up?) I understand racing is not cheap but I feel that the pavement mods have got out of control as far as cost goes. It seems a little late to try to keep costs down. If you put some rules in place to cut costs most tracks will suffer right away and drivers will be Poed.

We have a lot of fun on dirt because its so laid back and every time we hit the track its different every time that keeps it interesting.

I think the cost is the biggest factor. From all aspects for fans, racers and sponsors. Coolers and families, and low budget engines and still having fun and being competitive, large number of people is very tempting for advertising.

this is a good topic more people should commit on it. Dirt tracks still have late models tar tracks dont.Look at the price to get in at a dirt track with late models and a tar track without late models Now some tar tracks with there top classes limited late models and mods are cutting either one of these reaming top classes each night and what is the price to get in, is it the same or is it less with a top class out?
One more thing dirt tracks most nights are 2 or more groves , some tar tracks are one lane only and pass only when someone makes a mistake.
not trying to put down tar tracks but as a fan who money pays the tracks bills and the drivers purse i go to 90 per cent dirt because i like LATE MODELS.
Look At the dirt late model car count for sat. night I-96 37 lates 27 mods. crystal 30 lates 40 mods, than oak shade late models. those 3 tracks have more late models total than tar lates around by far as a fan where are you going to spend your money? right where there are now.
It seems funny to me that people are talking about a traveling series [not for late models]that will not have the car count to out draw a regular night dirt show and pay extra to get in for the show and feel people will spend there money there
I will pay extra for 40 plus mods but not less,
Late Models are still KING and thay are found on dirt

i will be back to owosso again for a whole host of reasons. but a couple of them are the competition and the way i was treated. i loved racing with 22 cars most of which are capable of winning on any given night, i had a blast running. next was the way i was treated, jeff and rick are doing a GREAT job with owosso and it seems like they really appreciate every driver and every person that comes threw the gate. jeff met me at the pit shack thanked me for coming and shook my hand, means a lot to a person. i will defiantly be back to owosso in the future. thanks guys i had a great time there at the big o.

Believe it or not I am not gonna sing the praises of dirt. Dirt has a TON of support from the bigs right now, Tony Stewart bringing in Cup drivers at Eldora for an invitational doesn't hurt a bit. There are dirt tracks all across the country that are on the verge of closing. However if you took Ron Flinn and put him at an asphalt track on the east side I am pretty sure that after a couple years they would be on top of the east side. I hear great things about a renaisance at Owosso Speedway and Auto City is making good decisions 6:30 September start time example. Asphalt racing isn't dead Flat Rock And Kalamazoo prove that it's just taking a nap at a few race tracks and they appear to be waking up.

Couldn't say it better myself. Jeff will personally take every driver aside, shake there hand, thank them for coming, and ask ya if there was any issues that need to be talked about. Owosso has became my new home for the rest of 2008 and the future years to come. If the sled doesn't sell, we will have 2 cars there next year, possibly even the end of this year.

there is another side to car counts and that is quality. it could be said that 14 cars are better than 24. some times to much is put into numbers. example would be dixie mods 14 cars that could win at any track. a city thunder trucks, mid range car counts dont mean that much, its when you get eye catching big numbers that people take notice.

I'm with you slide job.

I would rather watch a field of 12-15 Modifieds like Owosso (nearly every driver has won a championship in recent history, as well as multiple feature wins all over) has been getting the past few weeks, then say a field of 20-25 "field fillers" I know the promoters out there wouldn't agree with me, but its not all about the "count" to me, I'd rather have a descent field with HIGH competition.

I know as a LONG time spectator at both Spartan and Springport that I am growing tiresome of low car counts and the excuses given for them. It takes more than just opening the gates to put on a show. How many drivers used to race the "Track the Stars call Home"? Now I read on this forum there will be one less Mod at Spartan. One less competitive car in the feature. Does this trend bother the promoter at all? I have supported both tracks all season in hopes that things might change and I will be there until the end of the season but c'mon. Do something to help car counts. I'm just a "butt in the stands" and alot of times in the pits but I believe we are entitled to a better show for our entertainment dollar.

not mean mouthing Owosso cause I like the place but if you think the 38 to 42 IMCA Mods at Crystal are five 'real racers' and 35 "field fillers" you are dead wrong. Many nights the previous weeks feature winner sits on the trailer because they didn't make the progressive race nor qualify thru the B, C, or D feature. Crystal has more action before the main features start than most tracks have all night. Count on it, every week.

No offense taken, I know how things run over there at Crystal.

I think with the way they do things over there, as far as counting heat races, you get the issue where your "premier" drivers aren't making the show. I actually like that way and heat races SHOULD be accounted for, otherwise -- why even bother racing your $5000-20,000 dollar race car for $35.00 to win a heat race? I say on the pavement aspect, why even run them? IMO it's not worth the risk of wrecking your equipment.

Crystals counts are great, I give them mad props as they are the only dirt track I'd attend --- but I just dont think heat races on the pavement are worth it, make it worth something.

Again, I'm not saying that less cars is always better then more cars, but what I'm saying is, when theres more competition with less cars then a bunch of field fillers whom are .75-1.50 off the pace, give me the lower counts every time.

It was our decision not to take the car back to Spartan and I know how much actually does hurt me not to be there but enough was enough, and I am pretty sure that Jason feels the same way. He has been racing there himself for I believe 13 yrs and for last Friday to bother him so much to say he wouldn't race there again should mean something. That is the way it is and it doesn't bother the personnel at the track. I feel for all you fans that go to Spartan and pay to see a quality show and watch as many cars go around the track as you guys do. I know personnelly as much as I love racing I would probably go to a track that has alot more cars in the fields but that is me and I love to watch full fields. I definitly wouldn't go to a show and spend $15.00 to watch a regular mod show and the ponies and the school bus figure 8's with rigged busses, but alot of people did that Friday a month ago. I trulyfeel sorry to all of my sponsors and the fans of Jasons that we will not be there, but as they say there are alot of different tracks out there and I hope our decision is respected by our fans and sponsors. BTW we aren't the only mod to have left Spartan this year because of the tracks decisions.

Aaron Stenger- CK Racing & Fabrication

Thanks for listing Flat Rock as one of the tracks with car counts, and its true. Last Saturday, 25 outlaw late models with multiple feature winners and past champions in the field, 50 street stocks and 17 figure 8's. After the races there are many race teams that party in the pits and parking lot, still like the old days. By the way, if you have never seen a figure 8 at Flat Rock, 14 cars on up to 18 put on a great race, seems if they have anymore, they lose that intersection rythem Also, starts on time at 7pm, and most nights done at 10pm. Late model feature on a regular night is usually done by 9:15 and get paid off about 20 minutes after there done, as do the other divisions after there features.See Ya!

The reason you need car count isn't for quality reasons. It brings more fans because more people know more drivers. How many people want to go see uncle Joe race compared to a few guys who sure they're fast but they have no idea who they are. That is why more cars draw more fans locally. Last year 243 cars tried to make the World 100 legitmately I would say only 50 to 70 of them had a chance of winning the thing but the more cars you have the more excitment you are able to build. How many cars really have a chance to win at Knoxville? Would the Nationals be as cool if only the World of Outlaws regulars showed up? No they wouldn't. Besides average Joe fan doesn't know the difference between the guy that wins the consi and the guy that wins the feature. Only people with love for racing that borderlines some 12 step addictions, well like um, you know, all of us know the difference. But we need average Joe fan there. A party can be great with 5 or ten of your best freinds but add say 50 more and you have a fiesta 100 more and you have a bash. We want to have a big party now don't we? I sure do.

I wanted to take one of our cars to owosso 2-3 weeks ago but I had a question whether it was legal or not. The owosso web site was under construction and had no contact info so I post a question on here and someone Left Jeff's phone number I called Jeff got voice mail and left a Message he never called me back maybe it was just a message he never got I guess I can give owosso the benfit of the dout this time

The contact info has been updated on the website.

i point, everbody must remember the average race fan is pretty smart he knows what is going on. you might get a coulpe of new fans that never been to a track before but by far most fans are the same ones you see at tracks all acrost the state, they go where the shows are
the fans should always be thought . you can and its happened have a huge car count and no fans in the stands to pay everybody.its a three way puzzle tracks,drivers, fans
i feel tracks should poll there fans to see what they will pay to see.

Well its not a tough to figure out guys The racer goes where he gets treated good and payed good.Then when fans hear from drivers how much the place is great that puts people in the stands Its just the way it is How many threads do you see on how Ron Flinn has changed, rules screwed people, you dont Hes at other tracks watching races on fridays and sundays visiting with people and loves racing.
You go to owosso now the owners know you bye your name its good racing They take fans ideas and consider them they run australian pursuits and they pay great Its proven people will come back when theres cars and good racing thats why dirt tracks are packing the stands and pits its the great racing I would much rather leave the track because ive seen enough not because there done at 9pm Im not bashing any track but lets face spartan and springport is not worth it for a fan or for a driver The pays terrible for the lower classes and there no cars to watch People are on a small budget now days so you got to make it worth it

A little off the subject Hartford speedway charged $25 a car load a couple weeks ago and had 4500 hundred people in the stands Figure that out it they each bought a $2 hotdog and $2 pop thats $18000 its not hard to come up with something to make a killing

Car count and crowd count are related. I just like going where there are lot of people are happy. Drivers,Fans track employees, pit crews everybody I would tow my car right past Potomac to race at VMS if I had a car for one of their divisions FACT. I am not saying the average fan is dumb but there are lots of kids and new fans in the stands that just don't know yet at least there are if we are reaching new people.

Yes, the average fan at your weekly track is not dumb, but there are plenty in the stands that you still have to treat as first-timers. The average fan is the one that you will see at least three times a year whereas the first-timer is who we try to entice to come back and bring friends. Yes, we are very lucky at Crystal and Ron has a great deal to do with that. The staff is second to none as Ron has surrounded himself with those that believe the same philosophy as he does. that is why so many of us have worked there for a long period of time. I hope that is also one of the reasons that we retain as many drivers as we do from year after year. I tink the previous owners of Crystal also shared that same philosophy. Is the track perfect...heck no. We all know that the facility needs some improvements, but the show on the track is efficient and well run. The drivers do an awesome job on track and are also willing to do things for the kids on our kids nights. All of that equates to a nice blend that has created success when things in Michigan are tough. What Trevor and I do behind the microphone is only a tiny contribution to the fan and driver base that Crystal has enjoyed the past few seasons. I am TRULY lucky to be a part of the staff at Crystal.

Everything is cyclical, so I am sure that things will change for everyone within a few years.

Roger, you guys have stepped up your program to levels above and beyond anything you had ever done. After my 2 visits last June I am convinced CMS is the number one regular weekly track I have ever been to as far as program goes at least out of 30 something tracks I have been to. 10 years ago I wouldn't have said that, it was just another pretty good race track. Are there things I would like to see there that you guys don't have now, sure. However I know you guys know where you need to improve. If I was a rich man I would lease Potomac Speedway for a weekend have a 20,000 dollar to win late model race and bring you guys in to run it, the whole dang staff. So you guys could get the credit you really are due that your location will not allow.

Sometimes I feel like tracks are so sure what they are doing is right they are afraid to change. A lot of them seem to say oh that won't work here ignoring the fact that what they have just ain't working anymore. Why? Mike Kern didn't invent the School Bus Figure 8. What if he would have said, that won't work here? Dixie would still be the almost out of business 1/3rd Mile dump that I used to love so much.

If you are happy with where you are, you will never go anywhere.