Here is a proposed (Rough Draft) Points System for both divisions of S.T.A.R.S.
Look it over and let us know what you think....

Qualifying
1. 15
2. 13
3. 12
4. 11
5. 10
6. 9
7. 8
8. 7
9. 6
10-??. 5

(Note: From 10th place on down, those teams would receive Five ( 5 ) points. As soon as a Team pulls into the pits on race day, they receieve those Five ( 5 ) "Show-Up" Points.)


Dash
1. 15
2. 12
3. 11
4. 10
(Note: all Four-Car Dashes for the Top Four ( 4 ) Qualifiers that are already locked into the show, will be Four ( 4 ) laps in length)

Qualifier Heats
1. 15
2. 12
3. 11
4. 10
5. 9
6. 8
7. 7
8. 6
9-10. 5
(Note: There will NEVER be more than 10 cars that start a Qualifier Heat Race which will be 12 laps in length)

B Mains / Last Chance Races
1. TRANSFER
2. TRANSFER
3. TRANSFER
4. TRANSFER
5. 5
6. 4
7. 3
8. 2
9-?? 1
(NOTE: The B Mains / Last Chance Races will transfer either the Top Four ( 4 ) or if the car counts warrant it, the Top Two ( 2 ) out of each and transfer them into the main feature. All B Mains / Last Chance Races will be at least 12 laps and could be as high as 20 laps depending on car count. There will never be more than 18 cars that would start one B Main / Last Chance Race)

Feature
1. 60
2. 55
3. 51
4. 47
5. 44
6. 41
7. 38
8. 36
9. 34
10. 32
11. 30
12. 28
13. 26
14. 25
15. 24
16. 23
17. 22
18. 21
19. 20
20. 19
21. 18
22. 17
23. 16
24. 15

Bonus Points
5 Extra Points for all drivers who lead at least One ( 1 ) Lap.
5 Extra Points for the driver who leads the most laps.

If you don't award transfer cars in the B main points, why in the heats? maybe make the feature the only points race. another dirt thing, sorry. Looks ok though.

The B Main cars will have already had Two ( 2 ) chances to make the Feature. The B Main transfer cars get to run the Feature, which would be award enough at that point

It's designed that way so that the Dash and Qualifier Heat Transfers would (and should) be rewarded for transferring into the Feature earlier in the night.

yeah but you are giving points to some of them 5-10. I see no reason to do that, it's more paperwork.

The teams that don't transfer into the Feature should get something in addition to their tow money for their efforts.

Not everyone will make the show every night either and besides, I don't mind paperwork.

well, why don't you give everybody that shows say 10 tow points it would encourage attendance, could make or break somebody if it was tight.

or maybe 1st show 5 second 10 3rd 15 and keep moving up 5 per show you have that they attended. the guy with 2 shows gets 10 driverwith 3 gets 15 etc. however that would also be a penalty for guys not being there could be good or bad, Man I really hate point systems. I will never ever run for points.

The Original Idea is that no more than 100 total points would be awarded per Race Day.

I'd say 5 points is plenty to start with on race day and each team can build from there with Qualifying, Dash (Obviously for the Top 4 only), Qualifier Heats, B Mains, and Features.

Matt, I like your point systems. Fair for everyone, every car has the opportunity to gain the most points on any given race day.
VERY NICE!!!!!

I don't know that it should be a concern, but say that I show up one race where you have 11 cars (not saying that is what to expect, it just makes the math easier) and you run heats of 6 and 5 cars since you won't run more than 10 cars in a heat. I finish last in the slow heat cuz I am the slowest car there, and I get 9 points. The next week, we get 18 cars and I fisinh last in the slow heat again, and now I get 5 points.

I guess that it makes sense cuz the firts night I was the 11th fastest car and got 9 points, and the next week I was the 18th fastest car and got 5 points. I gotta figure out if that may make a difference over the course of the season, or if it all pans out as guys do/don't show up.

I think the feature points aren't too bad, but maybe they should be tweaked a little more and here's why...

Let's say driver A finishes 4th in every single race. In ten races, he will collect 470 feature points. His average finishing position is 4.0.

Now, take driver B. He wins three events, and finishes 7th in all the other races. He will collect 484 feature points. His average finishing position is 5.2.

Driver A has a higher average finishing position, but driver B wins the championship. However, I understand that driver A never won a race while driver B won 3 of them. On the other hand, driver B wasn't as good as driver A at the bulk of the events.

So, I'm thinking that the points need to be tweaked a little so that the driver with the highest average finishing position gets the most points and then add just a little extra advantage for winning a race.

If those three wins for driver B were three 2nd places instead, he would have an average finish of 5.5 and would only be 1 point behind driver A in feature points. The championship would be decided by heat races and qualifying.

I think some adjusting needs to be made.

-Maurice

Missing a night or more would hurt (points-wise) for sure.

Those that run the entire schedule would see the benefits of doing so (Again points-wise). It would all even out in the end.

Maurice
So you think there should be more points awarded for a Feature Win?

My thought was to reward consistency over the coarse of the season.

Qualifying and Qualifier Heat Races are a part of that. Those are what gets the teams into the Feature in the first place and again, another reason why they are so important.


What would be fair for a Feature Winner then? I have 5 more points than second and that drops by increments of 4,3,2, and finally 1.

maybe 5 bonus points for winning at one of the 2 tracks not designated as your home track?

Hi Matt,



No, go back and read my message again.

I was pointing out that a driver with a worse average finish could get more points than one with a better average finish, if he has a few wins or a few very high finishes, but doesn't do so well otherwise.

Play out a few scenarios and see how the points work out.

-Maurice

Consistency at the three tracks would be the key to a potential S.T.A.R.S. championship, but I see your point Maurice.

Let me ponder a little while longer on this....

Use straight points for features only. 20 for 1st, 1 for 20th. Too many championships have been won from qualifying 1st every week. Award racers points for RACING not driving fast by yourself. Simple and fair. 2 points for passing the most cars and maybe 2 points for taking over the lead,none for stating on the pole unless you fall back and lose the lead and then retake it.

No points for anything else. KISS is best.

I have to agree with this. sorry it just makes too much sense to me, your system would be good but ever the purist, I favor what Dick is saying.

Rewarding the fast qualifiers with points can help prevent sandbagging. But you have to be careful how much of a reward is handed out.

Maybe once it gets down several places, it shouldn't matter as much. The feature winner is usually amongst the top ten qualifiers. In Modified racing the way we know it currently, there is very easily 10 different drivers who can win any given race and they almost always qualify in the top ten, every one of them.

These 10 top drivers are the ones who will earn the most points in the feature. They should also be rewarded for their qualifying efforts, but not by a lot. Maybe something like:

1. 5
2. 4
3. 3
4. 2
5-10. 1

This makes a 12th place car/driver try a little harder to get that extra point or two.

Make the feature provide the most points and the heats and qualifying be just small added bonuses. Maybe look at scaling the feature points up higher so that the winner is awarded 200 points instead of 60. It's easier to get the spread between positions that you are looking for when there are more points to work with.

Just an idea to consider, that's all.

-Maurice

Revised, with some tweaks....

Qualifying
1. 10
2. 8
3. 7
4. 6
5-?? 5

(Note: From 5th place on down, those teams would receive Five ( 5 ) points. As soon as a Team pulls into the pits on race day, they receieve those Five ( 5 ) "Show-Up" Points.)

Dash
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
(Note: all Four-Car Dashes for the Top Four ( 4 ) Qualifiers that are already locked into the show, will be Four ( 4 ) laps in length)

Qualifier Heats
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
5. 6
6. 5
7. 4
8. 3
9-10. 2
(Note: There will NEVER be more than 10 cars that start a Qualifier Heat Race which will be 12 laps in length)

B Mains / Last Chance Races
1. TRANSFER
2. TRANSFER
3. TRANSFER
4. TRANSFER
5. 5
6. 4
7. 3
8. 2
9-?? 1
(NOTE: The B Mains / Last Chance Races will transfer either the Top Four ( 4 ) or if the car counts warrant it, the Top Two ( 2 ) out of each and transfer them into the main feature. All B Mains / Last Chance Races will be at least 12 laps and could be as high as 20 laps depending on car count. There will never be more than 18 cars that would start one B Main / Last Chance Race)

Feature
1. 70
2. 60
3. 55
4. 51
5. 48
6. 46
7. 44
8. 42
9. 40
10. 38
11. 36
12. 34
13. 32
14. 30
15. 29
16. 28
17. 27
18. 26
19. 25
20. 24
21. 23
22. 22
23. 21
24. 20

Bonus Points
5 Extra Points for all drivers who lead at least One ( 1 ) Lap.
5 Extra Points for the driver who leads the most laps.

As was stated earlier, the most points any one team can earn on one race night is 100. More points to be earned in the feature.

The only problem I can see is too many points between 1st and 2nd in the feature. Owosso only has a two point difference between 1st and 2nd, which I think (personally) is about as high as it should be.

I tend to agree with Chris. 70 for first and 60 for second is like giving 200 for first and only 170 for second. When there is only 70 points for first, second should get 66 or 67. As it is, a guy that wins a few times is going to be hard to beat. He can dominate the first few races (or at his own home track) and just cruise at the rest of the races.

Like I said before, scale the feature points up some so you can get the spread between positions where you want. Then if you leave everything else where it is, the other points awarded are still important, but not as dominating as they could be.

-Maurice

Chris
My feelings on that are that the Feature Winner should rightfully be rewarded. While it is on the high side, it makes winning that much more important.

Feature is revised, how's this look????


Feature
1. 70
2. 65
3. 61
4. 57
5. 54
6. 51
7. 48
8. 46
9. 44
10. 42
11. 40
12. 39
13. 38
14. 37
15. 36
16. 35
17. 34
18. 33
19. 32
20. 31
21-24. 30

That's better.

-Maurice

Looks better to me

So upon further review, here is the proposed S.T.A.R.S. Points System.

Qualifying
1. 10
2. 8
3. 7
4. 6
5-?? 5

(Note: From 5th place on down, those teams would receive Five ( 5 ) points. As soon as a Team pulls into the pits on race day, they receieve those Five ( 5 ) "Show-Up" Points.) The Top Four ( 4 ) in Qualifying get the extra points tagged on.


Dash
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
(Note: all Four-Car Dashes for the Top Four ( 4 ) Qualifiers that are already locked into the show, will be Four ( 4 ) laps in length)


Qualifier Heats
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
5. 6
6. 5
7. 4
8. 3
9-10. 2
(Note: There will NEVER be more than 10 cars that start a Qualifier Heat Race which will be 12 laps in length)


B Mains / Last Chance Races
1. TRANSFER
2. TRANSFER
3. TRANSFER
4. TRANSFER
5. 5
6. 4
7. 3
8. 2
9-?? 1
(NOTE: The B Mains / Last Chance Races will transfer either the Top Four ( 4 ) or if the car counts warrant it, the Top Two ( 2 ) out of each and transfer them into the main feature.)

(All B Mains / Last Chance Races will be at least 12 laps and could be as high as 20 laps depending on car count. There will never be more than 18 cars that would start one B Main / Last Chance Race)


Feature
1. 70
2. 65
3. 61
4. 57
5. 54
6. 51
7. 48
8. 46
9. 44
10. 42
11. 40
12. 39
13. 38
14. 37
15. 36
16. 35
17. 34
18. 33
19. 32
20. 31
21-24. 30

Bonus Points during Feature
5 Extra Points for all drivers who lead at least One ( 1 ) Lap.
5 Extra Points for the driver who leads the most laps.

As was stated earlier, the most points any one team can earn on one race night is 100. More points to be earned in the feature. The most points a team can earn and still not make the show would be 15.

I think, with a five point difference between first and second you should lower the amount of bonus points given out. Five seems a lot for this system. Maybe try 3?

Why award any bonus points during the feature? You get what you get from finishing order. I don't like the idea of leading most laps gets 5 "bonus" points. For the first three tracks being considered it might be ok since they all have multiple grooves for racing, but lets say that this takes off and becomes a state wide traveling series. Now my next statement is not meant to bash anybody or any track, but I have been to several tracks where the winner comes from the front row more times than not. This wouldn't be fair to racers they don't start up front. I like Dicks idea where you award points for positions gained in the race. Say 1 point for every position gained in the feature.

I think 5 for leading a lap and 5 for leading the most laps is fair.

How many times have we seen someone lead the first 49 laps of a 50-lap feature? I feel 5 points is a nice reward for leading a lap in the main feature and another 5 for leading the most laps.

Besides, I need those bonus points to get to 100 maximum for a race day.

Well, it just makes it possible for the guy who finishes Second to get Five points MORE than the winner.

Well the leader has to lead a lap too right?

How about just 5 points for leading a lap and NO Bonus for the leader of the most laps?

Take that other 5 points and place it either on the Feature Winner, or give it to the Fast Qualifier?

Ah, my math was off, it would be equal not five more. I wouldn't add the five points to the feature winner, but Fast qualifier could work and add a bit more importance to qualifying.

Upon further review, here is the revised (and hopefully final) proposed Points System....

Qualifying
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
5. 6
6-?? 5

(Note: From 5th place on down, those teams would receive Five ( 5 ) points. As soon as a Team pulls into the pits on race day, they receieve those Five ( 5 ) "Show-Up" Points.) The Top Four ( 4 ) in Qualifying get the extra points tagged on.


Dash
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
(Note: all Four-Car Dashes for the Top Four ( 4 ) Qualifiers that are already locked into the show, will be Four ( 4 ) laps in length)


Qualifier Heats
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
5. 6
6. 5
7. 4
8. 3
9-10. 2
(Note: There will NEVER be more than 10 cars that start a Qualifier Heat Race which will be 12 laps in length)


B Mains / Last Chance Races
1. TRANSFER
2. TRANSFER
3. TRANSFER
4. TRANSFER
5. 5
6. 4
7. 3
8. 2
9-?? 1
(NOTE: The B Mains / Last Chance Races will transfer either the Top Four ( 4 ) or if the car counts warrant it, the Top Two ( 2 ) out of each and transfer them into the main feature.) Of course depending on car count, the amount of transfer cars can change at the discretion of S.T.A.R.S.

(All B Mains / Last Chance Races will be at least 12 laps and could be as high as 20 laps depending on car count. There will never be more than 18 cars that would start one B Main / Last Chance Race)


Feature
1. 75
2. 65
3. 61
4. 57
5. 54
6. 51
7. 48
8. 46
9. 44
10. 42
11. 40
12. 39
13. 38
14. 37
15. 36
16. 35
17. 34
18. 33
19. 32
20. 31
21-24. 30

Bonus Points during Feature
5 Extra Points for all drivers who lead at least One ( 1 ) Lap.

As was stated earlier, the most points any one team can earn on one race night is 100.

This is a big dilemma you have here Matt.

With qualifying, if you give out a large amount of qualifying points then championships can be won/lost in time trials and that is not what we want. But, if you award too few, then qualifying has little importance and guys may try to "run a number" to get a good feature start.

I say that going with a lower figure is better. Why? Qualifying well (top 4 for this argument) already guarantees you a spot in the field (if I am understanding the system from the other threads), and guarantees you no fewer than 7 points from the dash. So if you qualify in the top-4, the fewest amount of points you head into the feature with is 14, with a max of 20. While someone who qualified 5th and wins the qualifying heat winds up with 15.

I guess what I am trying to say with all this jibberish is I like the system how it is right there Matt. Do not award more points for qualifying because then it becomes a game of running 2 good laps to win a championship. It is called racing and not qualifying.

**Maybe a hard charger bonus like 5 points (or even 3) for someone who starts far back in the field and puts on a show. I like rewarding guys who make significant moves in the race.

The problem I have is that a guy that busts his fanny to make the 4 car dash can be out pointed by a guy that goes into a heat race. example:place 4th in the dash and get a total of 14 pts . The guy who doesn't give everything and qualifies 5th and places 1st in the slow heat will get 15 pts. I think this should be corrected so the only way a slower qualifier can get more points than a dash participant is in the feature. By more seperation, it could help take care of bagging.

Greg

Most everybody bust their tails, especially the top ten. I can guarentee that at most tracks, the difference between 4th and 5th place qualifying is less than .1, so I don't see the need to force feed the top 4 all the points. 4th place has the opportunity to win the 4 car dash from the pole, which would give them 17 pts. Fastest qualifier would receive 17 pts if they placed 4th in the dash, seems fair. Top 4 are locked in, receive more points for qualifying, and have the opportunity to score more than anybody in the other heats. I have never been in favor of a large advantage for qualifying, easy to rip off a lap when nobody is around.

Andy

Kyle, Greg, and Andy
I see both of your points

What if we came up with something where if say, the Fifth Fastest Qualifier wins his Qualifier Heat, he would receieve a maximum total of 14 points leading into the Feature (6 for 5th fast time and 8 for winning the Qualifier Heat)

Obviously is a driver who qualifies 6th on down would get 5 for Qualifying and 8 for winning his Qualifier Heat for a total of 13.

While the Top 4 dash cars should (rightfully so) be rewarded. Fourth Fastest Qualifier is already getting 7 for 4th quick time, and let's say he finishes 4th in the dash, that's 7 points, so he'll still get 14 total points leading into the feature.

The only team who would get equal points with a dash car would be the fifth fastest qualifier, providing he wins his heat.

Could also have the Qualifier Heat Winners get 7 points and this way the most points a team (Not in the dash) can have going into the feature would be 13. One less than the fewest points a dash car could earn.


Make sense? What do you all think?

No, I liked your first version. I didn't agree with Greg. Now you just had a driver win a race and have less points than a driver that went from the pole to 4th in a dash get more points because he outqualified the 5th place driver by less than .1 of a second. Usually at Whittemore the top 10 are all within .2 to .3, stick to your revised edition.

I like it. Some of us will never be satisfied but we are real close to being as good as you can get!


Greg

So would this version be a good compromise?

The Fifth Fastest Qualifier wins his Qualifier Heat, he would receieve a maximum total of 14 points leading into the Feature (6 for 5th fast time and 8 for winning the Qualifier Heat)

Obviously a driver who qualified 6th on down would get 5 for Qualifying and 8 for winning his Qualifier Heat for a total of 13.

For the Dash Cars, the Fourth Fastest Qualifier is already getting 7 for 4th quick time, and let's say he finishes 4th in the dash, that's 7 points, so he'll still get 14 total points leading into the feature.

Here's how that would look:

Dash
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
(Note: all Four-Car Dashes for the Top Four ( 4 ) Qualifiers that are already locked into the show, will be Four ( 4 ) laps in length)


Qualifier Heats
1. 8
2. 7
3. 6
4. 5
5. 4
6. 3
7. 2
8-10. 1
(Note: There will NEVER be more than 10 cars that start a Qualifier Heat Race which will be 12 laps in length)

I think the points for the dash and the Qualifier Heats should be the same. They're the same thing, just one is for cars already locked into the feature.

You're correct to a point, but shouldn't the Top 4 cars (Dash Cars) be rewarded for their efforts in Qualifying? Hence the higher points for the dash cars?

They ARE rewarded for the efforts in qualifying. That's why they get more points in qualifying than the cars in fifth and back.

Good Point Chris, but the Top 4 still will run the Dash and they're not going to race for nothing.

They get points for it right?

Just a suggestion Matt..... Award points for qualifying and feature only. If you really want to do something with points in the dash and heats make it that everyone gets the same as long as they compete. Drivers will still race especially if it has anything to do with the feature lineup. This way the Championship comes mainly from the feature racing and not preliminary events. If you throw too much into the mix it gets stale real quick. Just my thoughts though!

Thanks
Wes

Here's another idea....What do you all think of this system?


Qualifying
1. 10
2. 9
3. 8
4. 7
5. 6
6-?? 5 (Note: From 6th place on down, those teams would receive Five ( 5 ) points.


Dash
0 Points

Qualifier Heats
0 Points

B Mains / Last Chance Races
Transfer Cars = 0 Points
Non-Transfer Cars = 5 Points

Feature
1. 85
2. 75
3. 71
4. 67
5. 63
6. 60
7. 57
8. 54
9. 51
10. 48
11. 46
12. 44
13. 42
14. 40
15. 38
16. 36
17. 34
18. 32
19. 30
20. 29
21. 28
22. 27
23. 26
24. 25

Bonus Points during Feature:
5 Extra Points for all drivers who lead at least One ( 1 ) Lap.

As was stated earlier, the most points any one team can earn on one race night is 100.

Works for me.

So, what is the incentive for running hard in the dash? Placement in the feature?

Greg

I believe it is making the feature.