I've brought this up before and I'm briig'in it up again.

I would like to get rid of the two barrel carb in the Street Stock class.
One-the two barrel carb drives up the cost of engines,lite-wt rotating assm.
Two-you can build a 500hp engine for less than $5200.00 that will last 2-4 times longer without a rebuild than the two barrel and cost 1/3rd less to rebuild.
Every time that tracks have gone to the two barrel engines,the lap times went down.[Meaning that drivers were spining tires.] and engine cost went up.
Give us wt. jacks at all four corners.
Some will say put on small exhaust,but all this dose is cause some to turn there engine too high.
Why not put in a gear rule to keep rpm's down.

If you would like some rule changes post them here and state why,maybe some mite get changed.

I agree with you on all those points.

For LS I would like to see racing springs legal. It cost much much more to junkyard search the right spring and have them rated than it does to buy 4 $45 springs and be done with it. This rule is archaic and the cars are not what they used to be and never will be again so lets move on and try to save ourselves money instead of costing ourselves money. Another item that would save some money is open air element air cleaners. Why not run what is the most affordable? I dont get the logic in the stock air cleaner thing. Its not a huge advantage especially if everyone has it. Now we all go out and get the big truck A/C and it cost a few bucks to replace those. I think making a manditory gear sucks, but it is a very good idea to even things up, and prevent those who can really spin em from doing it.

"One-the two barrel carb drives up the cost of engines,lite-wt rotating assm."

Why would people stop buying light weight rotating assem. just because they can run four-barrels?

"Two-you can build a 500hp engine for less than $5200.00 that will last 2-4 times longer without a rebuild than the two barrel and cost 1/3rd less to rebuild"

or 600hp for the same money as before. why is your motor cheaper to rebuild?

I'm ok with screw jacks in all four corners but that is the first thing that stops my ford from running FS at the Whittemore invite. Also Owosso won't allow a chevy motor ( like the one 99% of the guys are racing ) to compete in a ford chassis. When you allow solid mounts, the chassis doesn't care what motor is in it. Does it really matter what the roof of a FS is made of? Steel, aluminum, fiberglass? heck, if you got enough money to put carbon fiber on top of it then you'll likely outspend me on ever other part of the car also. Certain body rules just limit your car count and or cost people money. I remeber prostock at Whittemore in the late 90's. We had three different body rules in three consecutive years. what's the point?

What I don't like is mis matching frame sections. You can basically build a llm and that class already exists.

How about if you are allowed to run aftermarket springs but with the following rules:

1. Left and right must have the same number of turns and be the same wire diameter.
2. A gap checking tool must be able to fit between at least 4 pairs of coils.

No need to pull the springs and check the free height. That's a waste of time during inspection. As long as the wire diameter is the same and they have the same number of turns, they will have very close to the same spring rate left and right. And as long as there is a specific gap between a certain number of coils, then the springs haven't been wound in a manner as to lower the car significantly.

Simple to tech and it also gives the teams some leeway in selecting the springs they'd like to run.

What's your thoughts on that one?

-Maurice

since Dixie Sportsman all have to weigh the same weight then that should be what these cars car run at other tracks. maybe 3200 or 3250.

I would lobby for tubular upper control arms in Sportsman divisions. The rulebook clearly states that you can MOVE the mounting plate to get your desired geometry for the front. This rule makes it a LOT more expensive then just allowing tubular uppers, not to mention a LOT more work. Good luck finding a GOOD stock one that are not rusted enough to allow a good new set of polyurethane bushings. Not to mention with allowing tubes, you're ditching the $75.00 for bushings, for $3.50 in bolts.

JMO.

Why? If you allow them your done with it. It is a good thing for guys to learn about chassis and set ups. We are limited by tires and exhaust at least let us learn springs. I like your thinking but once you have allowed them why tech them is my question. I dont know why we have to have even up springs. It is a learing class but not the lowest one. Our cars are pretty fast and put on a decent show now. Guys are running stock springs but they are not mostly even up. Some do but most dont. I would like to have a few more things to allow me to learn.

for pure stocks i think that racing springs should be legalized without the stipulations that maurice brought up. the pures/led sleds are a class mean't to learn in and the first thing you need to learn is how to balance your car and springs are how you balance your car out. at sms/spartan do away with the vacuum rule. go to a lift rule .410 or .420 vacuum is to easily effected by EVERYTHING.

Yes, the uppers alone are a huge source of trouble. They are all very rusty and cost more than $50 each and then you need to change out the bushings and ball joints. Add to the $50, $20 for shipping and $30 (or more) for bushings and a ball joint. So for $100 you have something that is marginal at best and takes at least 2 hours of hard, dirty work to make work. A tubular upper is $50 to replace and everything is new.....

The same thing goes for springs. Where do you find a used spring or how do you know what the rate is? You can buy used springs for $25 all day long..........

RZ

I also wouldn't mind racing springs being allowed. What I was trying to point out was if there was a rule that was enforcing the same springs on both sides, the method I described is a very good way to tech them.

For a Pure Stock or Lead Sled, I don't think screw jacks should be allowed and if they are, it should be on just one rear corner such as the left rear. Adjusting one corner is all the learning that is needed.

Allow screw jacks at all corners and you now have less difference between the next class up. Keep it up and evolution will kill the class or the class above it.

-Maurice

lol u guys really want to no what should be legal lol no but for sure i think they should get some people from each class to clear some rules up and make some price cuts maybe they can hall the car to the track for us

why put a rule in that says same on both sides maurice? why not allow guys to be able to run what ever springs that they desire so they can learn to balance a car out. being able to balance a car out is going to be used in every class from pure stock to nextel cup. just put shock rules in place to keep guys from getting exotic with shocks. maybe one spring rule should be no progressive rate coils, 5 inch coil or larger. just an idea.

as for screw jacks maybe now just maybe in the LR but it's not that big of a deal.

#1 super lite wt.parts 500gm. or less will not live in a 500hp motor.
#2 rebuild parts-rings,bearings,rod bolts and gaskets---lite wt motor parts pistons,rods,rings,gaskets and these parts are not cheap.
On the cheaper motor you can use lower costing pistons,rods and cranks. You do not need to turn this motor to 7200rpms to make this power. 6200rpm to 6500rpm max. At this rpm the motor will last longer.

I think he's just saying if there is a rule regarding being the same that would be a good way to tech it. It would or you could have a rate checker wich is really the only way to check them.

With your set up you need a screw jack in the left rear!!!! lol

lol it works though, she's a little free but fast.

With a rate checker, you have to remove the springs.

You can avoid removing the springs if you simply do the following:

1. Count the number of coils.
2. Use a micrometer and measure the wire diameter.
3. Measure the outside diameter of the spring.

It's quick to do. If one spring has 6 coils and the other has 7, they don't match.

If one spring's wire diameter measures .675 and the other is .690, they don't match.

If one spring's outside diameter is 4.75 and the other is 5.00, they don't match.

There should also be similar gaps between the coils. You can check that by jacking up the car and letting the springs extend. You have to jack up the car to check the other measurements, anyway. With similar gaps, you will know that the springs haven't been specially wound or altered between the two sides for different coil binding.

-Maurice

I think we are getting a little confused here.

The original post, I think, was intended for street stock style cars, not lead sleds/bombers/pure stocks.

Just so we all know what kind of cars we are talking about.

Well The topic reads rules. Thanks for contributing. I realize he was talking about SS but his title read RULES. Thanks for policing us Kyle well try harder next time.

Yeah, I know. This became a two-part thread. I was simply responding to the second part.

Now, everybody, get back to the first part.

-Maurice

go with lift 450 at valve, 15 inchs vacuum at 1200 rpm , compression at 150 for pures that will keep the motor stocker. oldgold

go with lift 450 at valve, 15 inchs vacuum at 1200 rpm , compression at 150 for pures that will keep the motor stocker. oldgold

.450 lift at the valve would work. lets just forget the vacuum though, it's way to easily effected by external forces, and i'm tired of seeing people adjust their timing before the vacuum test, watching someone crank their timing all the way advanced before the test is annoying to say at the least.

FYI, the reason it is allowed to relocate the mount for the upper a-arm is so you didn't have to cut and weld a-arms every time you destroyed one. For this reason, it was a good decision. Just switch stock arms and go.

One of the main Ideas behind this class(sportsman) is to make a FS competetive when they move to the big track. Not many FS classes allow tubular a-arms. Tubular a-arms wouldn't benefit my ford because the spindles clamp the upper ball joint rather than have a taper like the lower joint, otherwise I might be for it. I'm entertaining taking out the screwjacks in my front and replacing them with screw cups so I can use stock located shocks to be legal at more tracks. I would like to run a limited schedule at Owosso.

Sorry Chad I didn't mean to offend you. I just didn't want other people to be confused and think it was all about one division.

I don't really care about these rules anymore anyway to be honest. I was just trying to help.

In fact, its good that multiple divisions could benefit from this thread.

that is where tech comes in timing cannot be adjusted and must be enforced, if you have to adjust you cant make timing period. if rules are written tech must enforce them. and if the tech doesnt have the available equiptment to do that job the promotor must supply them with the tools to do the job. you cant adjust anything at the other close track befor you are put into the tech barn. and it shouldnt happen at your track.

if you have to adjust your timing you wont make vacuum at race condition. if guys want to adjust timing on there engines to make vacuum do it befor the feature and make them leave it and check it after the feature and it better be where tech checked it with a timing light.

Im messing with you Kyle. Dont mind me! And you are right.

Their is a track in the U.P that has a vacuum rule of 15 inches at 1000 rpms , that allows the drivers to pinch off brake boosters, advance timing, tweak carbs and even go back to retrieve tools and such at their pits while trying to pass the vacuum rule. Rarely do techs check valve lift, so I think that vacuum rule enforcement is important. Keep the rules simple for pures/leds/etc. I was told a few weeks ago that they were only 2 out of the top 5 at this track that could pass vacuum. No DQ's.
Successful promotors have to stick to the philosophy of uniform and consistant rules and having good officials who can separate the emotion of the situations. Would we like to see 60 cars in a class or 6? The only way to acheive the 60 is to offer a fair program with rules that are strictly enforced,That way the competitors know your running a honest show.
This all starts at the tech barn. Keep the pures and sleds what they are supposed to be, not 4-5 thousand dollar pieces. Thanks, from a driver who is staying home til they learn how to tech.

It is ok to disscuse other class's than just street stock. Keep talking and saying why the change may help the class.

ohhhh you can run a 4bbl! just need a set of manifolds and a cast iron intake. and of course, we all know that there are tricks to be had with that setup. so really you have your choice. 2bbl. lightweight stuff, more expensive intake, more expensive headers. or. a nice purpose built q jet, a nice cast iron intake ( found a bowtie split plenum highrise on ebay for 50 bucks) and a set of cast exhaust manifolds. theres the argument that the track board will give you and they will not change their minds for the factories. and to behonest with you, we have run both set ups, a 2bbl aluminum/header and a 4bbl cast iron/manifold. saw no difference in pull or time. as for the sleds, yea, run racing springs. its way cheaper, and how about some tire stagger? we cant run stagger up here.

The way I see it is the vacuum rule does not work .Example, If you have a motor that has leaky valves cause it is a true junk yard motor than you will never hold it at 15 inches. And what about the guys that don't know anything about motors or tuning? I have seen real junk 305 motors not pull 12 inches and they were bone stock and had blow-by and smoked cause of bad rings. Real tough class to tech. I'd say seeing people spend 70 to 90 dollars each on tires now why not do like CRA street stocks do, run what you want just put them on a real cheap and hard tire that way the big motor over powers the tire and makes tha car a handful to drive.

Grant, Ive ran a q-jet and cast iron is Fs there a few years ago, and I can tell you I very much perfer the 4412, performer, and headders over the other set up. We gained 2 tenths when we switched. Joe should have noticed a drop in performance big time with manifolds, but everybodies setups and drive train combos are different.

Unless you guys have been running the Wissconson treats under the hood.

You missed the point. I did not say go back to cast iorn. I said open up the rules so lower cost engines can be built.

wisconsin? ive never heard of such a place. we are switching back for the invite.

Let's get back on subject.

i agree with you nate that some of the prices for the internal components for the fs is getting outrageous. yes, lightweight stuff helps, but like mike said its all in how you set up your car. you can set up your car for a lower hp engine. what im more appalled with is how much tires cost per week. to keep up in the fs class you need to buy new rubber every week, 2 weeks minimum. if perhaps there were an impound rule or 1 tire a week rule then we may have seen perhaps more cars and maybe even a more level playing field.

Claim rule on Pure stock motors that would end that deal heck why not a total car claim....lmao that will spark some stuff hey.

a whole car for 500 bucks. why not. guaranteed there will be a lot of cars switchin around haha.

A claim in this division would really be the way to go. The reason is that our guys would actually use the claim unlike the mod guys. No deals if your getting your butt kicked by one guy buy it. 700 bucks buys the motor. No trade outright.

If we are looking at cost saving rules for the bombers/lead sleds, how about going back to open rear ends. Big motors won't help if you can't hook it up.

You would have to tech it every night and guys would still have big engines. If they thought they would get claimed that might make them think. I know it would me.

I agree guys would still build big engines, it just wouldn't hurt so bad to have a smaller engine any more with the open rear end. Especially if you made all four tires have to be the same size. With out the reverse stagger in the back you will smoke the left rear tire every time you come off the corner if your engine is too big. Plus I miss watching the one wheel wonders

The only thing I really disagree with is the same tire thing. I really enjoy the concept of actually setting a car up. Give me tires and springs to do it with. I wish I could afford either, but I still think thats the point of a learning division. You have to learn to set your car up. I know that pressure is the most common tool with us, but different tracks often take different tires.

If they want to make the led sleds more competitive they need to go back to the open rear end with the vaccum rule. Just because a few people couldn't pass the test they got rid of it. That rule took out big cams. Go back to the rules from a couple of years ago. Springs must be same length and coil size from side to side, no racing springs, no adjustable spring spacers no screw jacks nothing made for racing except for the valve covers.

pure stock is supposed to be just that. eliminate all 400 engines or put a claim on engines, pures today are what we were running 10 years ago in streetstock. all cast iron no headers, no racing springs,open rearends. guys today are moving suspension points, building wedge into cars, and all of this for a entry level division. my thinking is make them run 305 engines that can be bought cheap in a claim.no aftermarket parts but valve covers. oldgold

Eliminating 400's is not the answer..Why doesn't someone build a 454 if they think that big motors are the answer? It would be legal..What they need to do is eliminate the ILLEGAL 400's!! And all the illegal motors for that fact..A couple years a go someone had a 383 and it was not dq'd at one track, after the tech guy pumped it!! The simple fact is that they need to get rid of the light weight cheater aftermarket bulls*** motors. If you are going to race at least build a legal motor. You can build a stock legal motor that will finish up front. I know for a fact that it has been done. What you guys think if I told a stock rotating assembly motor won the championship in the led sleds not that long ago?? Well it happened....The tech guys need to DQ the cars that are illegal to keep it fair for the legal cars and the track owner needs to stay out of the tech shed and the pits. If you get dq'd no going whining to the owner to get it overturned. Fix you crap and come back next week!!! Making racing parts legal is not the answer. IF you want to use racing springs and screwjacks and big high dollar lite-weight motors then go build a factor stock!! Led sleds should be back where they were just a few short years ago. Like I said before bring back the 15in lb of vaccum rule and the open rear ends with single exhaust and non-racing springs, and the field will tighten up and the racing will be better. At the same time though tech the living crap outta the cars....The rulebook is there when people build their cars make them use it, and follow the Rules!! Plus running 305's is not the answer. You have to let guys rebuild their motors or else the show will drag on forever because everyone will be blowing motors. If you make guys run 305's they will just cheat them up costing more money anyways.. And to me a claim is a stupid thing... I never liked the claim...Just put up a $500 tear down rule...Someone thinks someone has illegal stuff put your money where your mouth is. If the accused is legal they get the money to fix their motor.. IF they are illegal dq 2 weeks off and the money man keeps his money...That sounds more fair than taking someone elses motor...

Earlier in the year the tech guys @ Whittemore painted the rear coils on all the sleds. One blue, One red. Before the feature he made them swap sides with the springs. You should of heard all the crying! Open carriers, single restrictive exhaust, and a vacuum rule. This is what Factories were 25 years ago. How about a unified set of Lead Sled rule so you are only a tire size change from racing anywhere. 4/10 ,1/4, or 3/8ths size race track. It wouldn't matter because you can't have to much smoke. Just my 2 cents. Tom.

Jay71 basically took the words right outta my mouth. Make led sled/pure stocks the way they were a couple years ago. The racing was much better. I remember the first year they ran at Owosso, 3/4 of the field was in it to win. Now you have a few pull away. Like stated, don't outlaw 400's, just make them meet the rules that are stated. No racing parts of any kind. Stock springs, shocks, etc.